Craven
I disagree, how many abortions do you think are performed where the guy who did the deed is around and supportive. I am sure very few. How for instance are Catholic priests involved. The anti abortion movement is driven by religious beliefs and nothing else. I for one do not want to see any interchange between religion and government. If religion is for it I am against it.
So you are for murder, robbery, rape and any number of other violations of people because "religion" happens to be in opposition to those things occuring?
au,
I dispise religion and am strongly pro-choice but don't see the logic. Yes I'm sure many abortions occur when there is a caring supportive man around. Many abortions occur just because the woman doesn't want to lose her figure. There is a multitude of reasons and while it's ultimately the woman's choice she's certainly not the only person the law would affect.
We have had 30 plus years doing nothing but insuring that abortions were legal and safe in this country.
I am for anything that ensures that they are a little more rare.
Doesn't anybody remember the mantra prior to Roe v. Wade?
"Safe, legal, and rare".
Along the way, I think we have emphasized the former two at the exclusion of the latter.
Many abortions occur because a woman doesn't want to lose her figure?
Do you really believe this is true? I know a number of women who have had abortions and NOT ONE used that as a reason!
Piffka,
It depends on what you consider many. But yes I believe many abortions have occured in which the prevalent cause was to preserve one's figure. I think it's a perfectly valid reason for an abortion. I know two women who said that this was one of their concerns (they were modsels so you could say their career also influenced the decision).
max,
ANYTHING? How about paying them to carry and then put up for adoption instead of laws?
not a bad idea craven, however i need to point out that as a child welfare worker for the state i can attest to the LARGE number of children considered unadoptable because they are not blond/blue/infants. it appears to me that all the concern shown by the pro-life people does not extent to children already here and without families.
Hmmm. Well, there are no models in my group of friends. I don't think they are that common anywhere. I wonder, too, were these models from the US?
From what I've learned over the bazillion years I've been a woman and have sat waiting for friends in various abortion clinics... the main reason a woman has an abortion is her birth control has failed. Most women try immediately to get an abortion when that happens. Sometimes they don't have the money for one, or can't find a doctor since a lot of doctors have been scared away from the procedure. Sometimes they waffle for a while, or have to tell their boyfriends, but in approximately 30 years of knowing firsthand the facts of life... I've never known a single person, or heard of a single person (until you mentioned it) who had an abortion for her figure.
I've also never known or heard of any woman who had a late-term abortion... and I have several friends who are nurses that talk about their work. It is generally assumed that if you go beyond the first trimester, you have the baby. Since a lot of women don't even know they're pregnant until sometime during the second month, that doesn't leave a lot of time.
It's not even that simple dyslexia (and I suspect you fully realize that..). Our entire child welfare/support systems need to be tossed out and rewritten into something that makes a heck of a lot more sense. Adoption shouldn't be as paperwork intensive as it is for a starter.
We also have abortion as a completely legal alternative on the legal basis that a fetus isn't a person yet at the same time we have laws on the books that make the killing of a fetus in other situations murder (how can it be murder if it isn't a person?), we imprison pregnant women for using drugs and alcohol because it endangers the fetus and in some cases, we have pregnant women placed in prison hospitals to ensure they don't harm their fetus.
There is no way all of those positions jive with each other. Either a fetus is a "person" or it isn't. If it isn't then anything the mother does that effects that fetus is her business and not the states and the state has no business interfering. If the fetus IS a person then the state has the right to intervene in the abortion decision.
Before I say yes to your Modest Proposal, Craven, let me point out that A Brave New World may be at the bottom of the slippery slope.
Although I know that this is in fact occuring in many instances.(Paying mothers to carry)
As a government run program, it is pregnant with potential for abuse.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)
Piffka,
The models were Brazilian and the abortions were illegal (in Brazil only rape and medical danger are valid abortions).
---
re paying to carry. I don't expect it to be taken seriously, the idea is not viable. But I don't like the idea of laws solely to reduce the number of abortions.
dsy,
You touched on a sentiment I was referring to. Many of the children end up unwanted, and pro-life laws won't change that.
Craven
Quote:
Many abortions occur just because the woman doesn't want to lose her figure.
I am sure there may be some but I doubt that there are many. I wonder if there is a link related to that subject. The reasons and related percentages, why women have abortions.
Fishin
You got me.
i could not find very much that was not obviously biased for/against but i did find this:
52% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 20%.
While white women obtain 58% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.
Catholic women are 29% more likely than Protestants to have an abortion, but are about as likely as all women nationally to do so.
2/3 of all abortions are among never-married women.
On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 2/3 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.
About 13,000 women have abortions each year following rape or incest (00.9% of the annual total).
I doubt there are many abortions in which there is only one reason. So those stats might be a bit hard to find.
The 2 girls I knew could have listed the fact that they could not have worked if they had given birth as a reason they just chose to be flippant and say it was to keep their figure.
I doubt the percentage is high but many doesn't mean a percentage.
Anywho, it's pretty irrelevant, I didn't mean to discuss why abortions take place and can't remember why I said that.
A reminder that the thread itself is not the place for continuing discussions/comments on 'personal attacks'. Sort it out by PM, or if that fails, PM a Forum Guide.
I think it is fairly certain that the fundamentalist right will work to take every possible advantage of the situation. And it seems clear that they are more organized and more powerful within the party than ever in the past.
But this issue is one where the liberal-minded actually are well organized too, probably thanks most of all to the women's movement.
Partial birth abortions put the ethical dilemma front and center. Though i strongly support a woman's right to choose this matter, I've gotten in more than a few arguments pointing out that there seems no moral difference in killing a child five minutes before birth or five minutes after. The dilemma is, in my view inescapable, that 'life' in this context is shades of grey from a cell to a baby. The only easy way out is to go black/white. No news here, just my little opinion.
I know how you feel Craven.
I feel the same way about laws (and policies) specifically designed to increase the number of abortions.
Increase the number? What do you mean?
