As I've always said, talk is cheap.
Well, that's the thing. We all think that this is a significant development for American foreign policy.
It's just that the same people who have talked many times about how we didn't need France and Germany now point to their support as if it was the plan all along.
Some folks feel that France and Germany are looking at the situation reasonably - they didn't want to invade Iraq, we went and did it anyways, we are screwing up the occupation, and something needs to be done to stabilize the area now. They did it. That certainly doesn't make them 'part of the solution'; it just means they are willing to help clean up our mess for pragmatic reasons.
Cycloptichorn
Tell me, what exactly are France and Germany going to do that we need them? They won't be sending troops or money, all they have done is NOT veto a UN resolution...WOOHOO!!! Let's have a party!! France and germany are on board now!
We don't "Need Them", we would, however, appreciate it should they choose to participate in the resolution of the problem, and we are once again, as so often we have before, offering them the opportunity to do so. Whatever their choice in the matter, it is their choice. "We", The US, will continue assiduously and diligently to carry out necessary task, with or without "Their" help.
It seems to be pretty reasonable to me that the more allies we have in the war on terror the easier the load will be for the U.S. to bear.
There is a lot of anti-American sentiment over there (justified or not) that is standing in the way of peace in the region. In certain cases, a U.N. presence will help ease the tension between Iraqis who see us as conquerors and those trying to get things back on track.
Even from a purely political standpoint it is a good move.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
I agree with your take on it on the reasons why around the world it is better if they come on board and at least not veto a resolution. Although practically at this late stage I don't think it will make much difference in terms of the insurgency and having elections and restoring Iraq.
I got to thinking earlier that those who say we only want to see bad would probably have said the same thing if we were back in the days before the civil war. I can just hear them now.
"Hey, don't listen to those yankee abolitionist. They are just jealous of our fine way of life. Don't we take care of colored real good by providing them with a roof over their heads and foods in their belly's. Shoot, they don't even have to worry about gettin' tired of their women cause we will be taken them off their hands and into our beds soon enough. We will even be gettin them more women to breed when we get money on the auction block when we sell their children to the highest bidder. They don't ever have to worry about being lonely cause we just keep bringin more colored from the slave ships to replace our worn out slaves. Don't ya'll see how this here slavery is such a perfect plan that it has gotta be God's own plan? If you be for the abolitionist you be against God and the rebel cause. "
You can always spin things any way you want.
What we need are allies willing to do something other than impede the progress we have made in Iraq. If NATO and the UN actually choose to do something in Iraq other than hold meetings, they will be welcomed. But, when they start with the meddling, and interferring, then we will see what kind of allies they really are. We thought they had our back once, let's be sure that they don't jam a knife in it this time...
So it's okay for them to be allies as long as they don't disagree, or interfere, with anything we do.
Why do you treat other countries as if they are children and we are the parent, McG?
Cycloptichorn
The other countries are not children. It is my opinion that the countries of the world operate on the principle of Realpolitik--defined by Henry Kissinger as "foreign policy based on calculations of power and the national interest"
The French, under this principle, need not recall that we saved them twice and poured money into Europe after World War II( based ,of course, in reality, on our Realpolitik). The Germans, under this principal, need not recall that we saved them from the Soviets after World War II( based, of course, in reality, on our realpolitik.
However, I hope that no one on the left will, in future years, given our preeminence among the world's economies, be so hypocritical as to criticize the USA for their lack of humanitarianism if we, give copious messages of condolences to the Germans or French when their economies continue to sink, while we do nothing as they are doing with regard to helping us in Iraq.
I still do not know what has happened to the "contracts" that the French and Germans had with Saddam's Iraq. It will be interesting to find out.
France, Germany, and Russia are the largest holders of Saddam-eara Iraqi debt, a situation understandably of influece on their sentiments.
I don't see how other countries' decisions can be judged based upon the merit of their business arrangments, yet our own decisions have absolutely nothing to do with our business arrangments.
There are many, many American countries that have a vested interest in us going to war. Yet that has nothing to do with our decision? If that is the case, the debts owed to F-G-R have nothing to do with their decisions, either.
Cycloptichorn
The thing that frustrates me most in politics, on A2K, on message boards in general is that so many cannot argue the strength of their convictions. They have to tear down the other guy. They have to believe that everything is still terrible and that anybody who is hopeful is a moron.
I don't understand that kind of mentality. I am beginning to accept it as inevitable.
I would like to see the results of the Oil-for-food investigation soon. It will be interesting to see what aid France and Germany gave to Saddam while he flaunted the resolutions that were supposed to contain him.
timberlandko wrote:France, Germany, and Russia are the largest holders of Saddam-eara Iraqi debt, a situation understandably of influece on their sentiments.
The US offered guarantees of debt repayment.
They refused and now discuss forgiving large portions of the debts.
Seriously, this old saw, has very little in way of veracity.
Pesky things, them facts.
It remains to be seen if France, Germany, and/or France were beneficiaries by opposing a pre-emptive strike on Iraq however; or whether there were motives for that they would not wish to be made public. The oil for food scandal investigation is still in its infancy. It will be interesting to see what rats fall out of that nest if the investigation is thorough and honestly conducted.
I expect it will not be as embarrassing as it could be because we will give each country to save face in the eyes of the world. The US will gain an edge politically from this though.
