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Can you Americans defend this!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????

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MyOwnUsername
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:05 pm
Just kidding Very Happy
For those that joined in last few days - it's reference to one older topic...Wink

But I would like to ask you something. Of course, nobody of you is responsible neither for abusing of prisoners nor for convictions. I am asking you only due to fact that USA obviusly has terrible double standards when it comes for International War Crimes Tribunal and in external affairs, so I would really like to hear your honest opinion...

So, I have three questions and will be glad if you could answer them.

1. First american soldier responsible for torturing prisoners is sentenced for one year in jail and is expelled from army. Do you think sentence is fair?
2. If it's possible to imagine situation I would like honest answer would you feel the same (especially if your answer on first questions is "Yes") if you would hear that someone else (Iraq, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Peru, New Zealand, anyone...) sentenced their soldier for exactly same crime to exactly same sentence

3. probably most important - What do you think (your personal opinion of course), how would USA govt. reacted if some other country would do exactly the same thing?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:24 pm
Re: Can you Americans defend this!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????
MyOwnUsername wrote:
1. First american soldier responsible for torturing prisoners is sentenced for one year in jail and is expelled from army. Do you think sentence is fair?


"Fair" is hard to determine without having all the details of the charges. From what I know he was charged with taking a few pictures and not reporting the abuse and the sentence is provisional - he has to testify against his cohorts.

Quote:
2. If it's possible to imagine situation I would like honest answer would you feel the same (especially if your answer on first questions is "Yes") if you would hear that someone else (Iraq, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Peru, New Zealand, anyone...) sentenced their soldier for exactly same crime to exactly same sentence.


The question here assumes a simple black and white answer is available. If the authorities in any of those countries felt they had to cut a deal with a minor player to get convictions on the more serious charges I think most people would understand that.

Quote:
3. probably most important - What do you think (your personal opinion of course), how would USA govt. reacted if some other country would do exactly the same thing?


Well, As I recall there were a few thousand people involved in war crimes in Bosnia. How many of them have been tried and sentenced? Less than 100 according to press reports. That would indicate that there are people out there that committed crimes in Bosnia that were never charged and I don't see any comments at all from US Government on it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:31 pm
IF the soldier who was sentenced did not inflict intense physical pain on the prisoners, did not inflict injury to the prisoners, and was in fact guilty mostly of photographing and covering up the incidents; and IF the solder who was sentenced is willing to now give full cooperation to bring this ugly chapter to a close, then. . .

Yes, the sentence was severe and just. A year in federal prison and a dishonorable discharge is not a slap on the wrist. This will follow him the rest of his life.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:50 pm
Well, he can always be a security guard, or join the Texas police force.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:53 pm
Can he as a felon?
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:57 pm
I think fishin has got to the core of the reason. The prosecutors are using this soldier as a means of getting at those more culpable. This is a standard technique.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 01:57 pm
I think Texas is loose on that, but hey, I have no clue. There is always bounty hunting and the 'Soldier of Fortune' classified route as well.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:04 pm
fishin' - you don't see any comments because it's not your main area of interest (which is quite understandable) and I doubt that american media gives a lot of space for what USA officials are commenting and talking in countries such as Bosnia. Also, that is not quite good example because in Bosnia you don't see war criminals walking on streets and nobody arresting them (nor in USA, I am just saying that this example does not relate with my question). You can't blame Bosnian Serb officials for not arresting Karadzic and Mladic when all SFOR is unable to arrest them for 8 years.
And, believe me, USA is both commenting and moralizing all the time.

Of course, I respect your answer, just adding few comments.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:06 pm
cavfancier wrote:
Well, he can always be a security guard, or join the Texas police force.


Nah. You don't really think Chuck Norris would let him do you? Smile
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:08 pm
Acquiunk wrote:
I think fishin has got to the core of the reason. The prosecutors are using this soldier as a means of getting at those more culpable. This is a standard technique.


by the way I completely agree with that generally. I just think that mentioned Bosnians would have to listen long moralizing of US Embassy officials in same situation.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:10 pm
MyOwnUsername wrote:
You can't blame Bosnian Serb officials for not arresting Karadzic and Mladic when all SFOR is unable to arrest them for 8 years.


For what I know the fact that the SFOR is unable to arrest these criminals comes also out of the fact that many Bosnian Serbs protect them, for they have a more positive way of looking at these persons than others. For that, I do think that the government of Sprska (I hope I spell it right) can do more, also because there are allegations that this government is absolutely not participating in the search for war criminals.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:12 pm
Srpska, for rest I agree
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:22 pm
Actually the soldier did injure prisoners and he denied taking pictures. He got less of sentence than he deserved because he was willing to talk about other gaurds and other related information.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20040519/ts_nm/iraq_trial_dc_9


Sivits, the first U.S. soldier court-martialed over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib jail, had pleaded guilty on all four counts he faced, with a reservation related to the taking of a photograph of naked prisoners.


Sivits was charged with two counts of maltreating detainees, one of conspiracy to maltreat and one of dereliction of duty.


He had opted to be tried by military judge Col. James Pohl alone, without a jury, and faced a maximum jail term of one year. Sentencing was expected later on Wednesday


Others he described as abusing inmates had told him military intelligence had told them to do so, he said.


"They said that they were told by Military Intelligence for them to keep doing what they were doing to the inmates because it was working, they were talking," Sivits said during his court martial.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:25 pm
Rick - missed one part, sorry. No, I think current govt. of Bosnian Serbs is, well, fair. I don't think they are doing EVERYTHING they can, but I think they do participate.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:34 pm
Could be so, I do not know the government of course. But not so long ago there was a Dutch newsprogramm here which said that the UN had doubts about the participation of the Srprska government in the search for war criminals.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:40 pm
Fishin' - for whatever it is worth, the questions are directed at Americans in relation to abuse of other Americans. I am unaware of Bosnians mal-treating American prisoners - though I could be wrong.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:47 pm
MyOwnUsername wrote:
fishin' - you don't see any comments because it's not your main area of interest (which is quite understandable) and I doubt that american media gives a lot of space for what USA officials are commenting and talking in countries such as Bosnia.


Who says it's not my main area of interest? You assume that Americans don't bother to read foreign press or pay attention to groups like Amnesty International. Both would be bad assumptions.

Quote:
Also, that is not quite good example because in Bosnia you don't see war criminals walking on streets and nobody arresting them (nor in USA, I am just saying that this example does not relate with my question).


There are some 16,000 people that "disappered" in Bosnia and hundreds more that were raped, murdered, etc... Some 75 people have been indited by the UN War Crimes Tribunal. I think it's pretty safe to assume that 75 people didn't commit all those attrocities by themselves. That would mean that others either got lesser sentences or were never charged/convicted at all. That is directly comparable to the point of your original post.

Quote:
You can't blame Bosnian Serb officials for not arresting Karadzic and Mladic when all SFOR is unable to arrest them for 8 years.
And, believe me, USA is both commenting and moralizing all the time.


Who said anything about blaming anyone? You asked what we thought the US would do if similar circumstances occured elswhere and I gave a direct example of another circumstance. I didn't blame anyone for anything.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 02:50 pm
dlowan wrote:
Fishin' - for whatever it is worth, the questions are directed at Americans in relation to abuse of other Americans. I am unaware of Bosnians mal-treating American prisoners - though I could be wrong.


It was Americans abusing Iraqi's wasn't it?
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 10:52 pm
Fishin'
1. Sorry but here you are wrong. Totally wrong. And it's not my opinion but well known fact. Now, YOU maybe read a lot and try to understand and find out a lot about Bosnia. In that case I apologize (with addition that I haven't meant anything bad with mentioning that it's not your main area of interest). I met NUMEROUS Americans on chat that not only that have absolutely no idea about war in Bosnia, but don't know what Bosnia is. As well as they don't know what and where Croatia is, or Belgium, or Austria (ah, yeah, you had Olympics few years ago), or Hungary or lots of other countries and areas...It happened to me pretty often that someone asked "Croatia??? Where is that???" and funny enough, it happens only with Americans. You are different, most people on a2K are different, but you cannot deny that Americans generally know less about world then anyone else. You will hardly find Croat that knows much about Nebraska, but there is no chance that you will find Croat (or Bosnian, or Belgian, or Norwegian.....) that doesn't know that Nebraska is in USA. And you will hardly find European that never heard for Rwanda, Somalia or Afghanistan.

2. You are right. It's pretty safe to assume that 75 people have not committed those crimes alone. However, that's problem of Hague also. They are not allowing neither of bosnian nations to trial their own criminals but insist in sending them to Hague. And they provided a list with "75" names on it.

3. I know that you didn't "blame" anyone, I just think that your opinion about what is bosnian government doing or not doing does't really have anything to do with what would USA do in such situation.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 10:58 pm
One more thing - fact that you try to find out most you can about it is great - but unless you are reading bosnian newspapers you probably won't find or see anything about US officials commenting bosnian government.
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