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Is this public awareness poster from the NHS offensive to women?

 
 
Miller
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 08:54 am
@izzythepush,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Getting totally pissed in public is illegal in most places in the US ....


By "place" can I assume you mean "State" within the USA? If so, in some States, it is illegal to even drink any alcohol beverage on your front porch, much less being drunk. In other States, it's no business of anyone, if you drink alcohol on your porch, in your yard, or in your house. Likewise, in may parts of USA, it's no one's business if you're drunk on your front porch ( not bothering anyone) or drunk in your backyard ( not bothering anyone), or drunk in your own home ( not bothering anyone).

Thank God!


Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 10:08 am
@Miller,
I share your concern for the practice of doctors inquiring about gun ownership, but I'm afraid I don't see the relevance to this matter.

The gun ownership inquiries are a thinly veiled attempt to establish a national database of gun owners that encompasses those people who have not registered their guns or are not required to. I can't see it succeeding since if a gun owner hasn't registered his or her weapon (for whatever reason), it's unlikely that he or she will tell a doctor about it when it's clearly not a relevant question.

This matter, on the other hand, involves a legitimate program of public awareness by a government organization being criticized (unduly in my opinion) for imaginary sins.

Sometimes the government gets it right.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 10:12 am
@BillRM,
There is nothing wrong with the government, your doctor, or the man down the street providing information on gun safety to anyone and everyone. It it not necessary for doctors to know and record that their patients own guns in order to provide the information. It can easily be accomplished through the use of wall posters in waiting rooms or a stack of brochures that any patient can take if he or she is interested.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 10:17 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It it not necessary for doctors to know and record that their patients own guns in order to provide the information.


True however if a doctor know that a patient both have firearms and children in his or her household then the doctor can focus on educating that person instead of patients with out either children or guns.

The government hardly need doctors files to figure out who is likely to have guns and who is not using such data bases as hunting licenses and in my case and a million or so others in Florida our CC licenses.

Hell they could even paid the credit cards companies to tell them who had used credit cards at a gun shop and for what.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 10:18 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
You mean like curtailing the freedom to wear thousands of dollars of jewelry in a bad part of your city?

Generally, you know if you're in a high crime rate area of a city.

You don't know if you're in the area of a sexual predator. They don't announce themselves or wear signs, and they may be people you know. Only after they commit a rape do they reveal themselves.

Are you suggesting that women should regard being around any man as though they were wearing thousands of dollars of jewelry in a bad part of the city? Should a single woman never drink if there are any men in the vicinity? Should single women forgo drinking at bars and parties? The poster mentions only drinking, not being drunk.

Is that poster warning women to stay sober, and keep their wits about them, because otherwise they might fall prey to the unknown rapists that lurk around them?

I'm quite surprised you support an NHS poster that essentially says 'don't drink because men can't be trusted not to rape you', since you constantly complain about anti-rape campaigns because you feel they view all men as potential rapists. Apparently you do too.

But, as that NHS poster indicates, 2 out of 3 reported rapes do not involve a woman who has been drinking. No matter what a woman does, or doesn't do, she might not be able to avoid being raped, as long as she is alone with a man, including one she may have previously trusted. And osso's experience, that she mentioned earlier in this thread, is proof of that.

For me, the main problem with that poster is that it was part of an anti-binge drinking campaign, but it seems to provoke more discussion regarding rape than about alcohol abuse.









0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 10:58 am
I think the alleged controversy is really a tempest in a teapot. The government in the U.K. agrees the remaining posters should be taken down. And it doesn't sound as if many are still left up.
Quote:
A spokesperson for the Department of Health told The Huffington Post UK: "This campaign is no longer used. Posters have not been in stock, or available on websites for several years.”

"The problem is an issue for surgeries and hospitals displaying the poster. If they are still up after six years they should not be because the campaign has been refreshed since.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/31/nhs-dimisses-outrage-over-rape-posters-victims_n_5636953.html

So, people who see these posters hanging, should tell the director of whatever facility they are seen in, to just take them down, because the Dept. of Health says they should be taken down.

Also, some people want an apology from the Health Dept. for what they think was offensive about the poster, but they don't want to apologize because this campaign ended 7 years ago. I really don't think an apology is necessary.

Mainly this is just noise about some posters that are still up, that shouldn't still be up.

What's weird is that the controversy is going on now, 6 0r 7 years after the use of these NHS posters was discontinued. I can't find any evidence of a controversy about them between 2005-2007 when they were part of an active campaign.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 11:00 am
@Germlat,
Despite the conventional wisdom born of an early feminist perspective, the majority of rapes are about sex and not control of women so, unfortunately, if you are an attractive young woman you have an increased risk of being raped. I have no idea of the precise increase in risk, but I suspect that it is statistically very minimal, since, according to the linked article, as of 2010 0.2% or two tenths of one percent of women are, to begin with, the victims of rape in the US.

(Surprising, at least to me, but not particularly germane to this discussion, the same article indicates that when prison rapes are included in the statistics, more men than women are raped every year in the US - just another indicator of the hellish conditions in US prisons)

In any case your dressing to enhance your femininity or even to appear like a stereo-typical "slut" should not be considered a provocation or, worse, an invitation for rape. You may do so to "provoke" socially acceptable sexual reactions in males but clearly rape is not a socially acceptable reaction, and anyone that suggests that a rape victim "asked for it" is despicable. (particularly attorneys defending rapists).

(Since the range of deviant behavior seems boundless, I suppose there are extremely rare cases of women who actually do invite "rape", but then the act wouldn't be rape)

Again, taking precautions against being raped (and each woman needs to determine for herself to what extent she wishes to go in doing so) is no more an admission that rape is the fault of the victim or in any way excusable than locking your car door is an admission that you are at fault if your car is stolen or that car theft is excusable.

In a perfect world you would be able to stagger drunk down 6th Street in Austin stark naked except for a sign around your neck declaring "I really love sex!" and not, at all, be at risk for being raped, or post photos of all your valuables on Facebook and announce that you are going on vacation for a month and do not intend to lock any of your doors, and not, at all, be at risk for having your home burglarized, but, of course, we do not live in a perfect world and so precautions are necessary to protect our persons and property.

The Human Beast

Rape Statistics
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 12:06 pm
@Miller,
I don't consider my porch or backyard to be "public" places, and so would not support laws that restrict my activities in this areas unless they clearly present a danger to other people: I should not be free to willy-nilly fire a shotgun from my front porch or backyard if my house is situated in close proximity to others.

In any case, my point was that irrespective of what we think about laws prohibiting public intoxication, women do not have a right to be falling down drunk in public and so any argument that women should not take reasonable precautions involving drinking because of some perceived right to do anything they please irrespective of an increased risk of rape is not only foolish, it's moot as respects public intoxication.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 12:16 pm
@BillRM,
It's overkill and I am always suspicious of overkill. If a doctor has independently chosen to employ this practice it would not be a big deal, but it is a "suggestion" of the government. I don't own a gun, and if I did I would register it, but I'm afraid I am suspicious of anything that looks like the government is collecting data about gun owners that it is not already in place, by law. Call me paranoid, but I don't have a blind faith in the motivation of bureaucrats and "political advisers." There are certainly appropriate reasons for the government to collect data on the citizenry, but the practice should be subject to scrutiny and constrained.

It's not going to harm patients without guns to read a poster on a wall or walk by a stand of brochures on gun safety, anymore than it hurts a woman to see the poster that is the topic of this thread.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 12:32 pm
Quote:
Northampton Journal
Partying Until Drunk and Disorderly in Britain
By STEVEN ERLANGER and STEPHEN CASTLE
December 22, 2013

NORTHAMPTON, England — It was just after 4 a.m., the last clubs were closing and the police had three young men pinned against a brick wall and a fourth on the ground. The young men, gloriously incoherent, some of them bleeding, could barely stand, let alone answer the questions from the officers, who were responding to a fight. As the scene in downtown Northampton unfolded, another drunken young man slugged a passer-by, then fled.

A young woman, Becky, tried to attend to her boyfriend, whose arm was numb and collar bone possibly broken. It was freezing cold, but she had on a thin dress and no shoes. He begged her to stay; drunk herself, she walked away, then returned, crying, and began to kiss him as the police tried to restore order.

About a hundred yards away, on the main drag, Bridge Street, a young woman emerged weaving from NB’s nightclub. She threw up on the sidewalk and her own thin, glittery dress, as a friend tried to hold her head. Then she looked up at a policewoman coming over to help, and with vomit in the corners of her mouth, sweetly apologized.

Six miles away, on Shadowfax Drive, in tougher east Northampton, a drunken house party had gotten out of control. Three people ended up in the hospital, one with his arm nearly amputated by a meat cleaver and another missing part of his nose, and 10 others were arrested.

It was just another Friday night in Northampton, where young Britons, often in packs, go out to get thoroughly, blindingly and often violently drunk, said Inspector Vaughan Clarke of the Northamptonshire Police. Given the price of alcohol in bars, pubs and clubs, they often “pre-load” with cheap vodka and gin from 24-hour discount stores or supermarkets. Some arrive in the city center drunk; by the time they leave, they make the city’s vagrants look sober.

From Falstaff to Churchill and beyond, Britons have been known for their love of drink. But whether as entertainment or mating ritual, the spectacle of dressed-up youth wandering the early morning streets barely able to walk or talk has become an issue of growing social importance, because of both the violence that alcohol often engenders and the vulnerability of young women, who are sometimes molested or raped when they are in no condition to defend themselves.

Britain’s Institute of Alcohol Studies said there had been a small decline in alcohol use from its height in 2005 and the country is roughly in the middle compared with other European Union countries in estimates of liters of legally sold alcohol drunk per person. But the institute said that the drinking habits of Britons ages 15 to 24 “differ from older generations,” in that “they drink less often during the week, but that they are more prone to heavy episodic or binge drinking when they do,” a phenomenon that the police are starting to address more forcefully.

“Those scenes in Northampton would be the same in every town center in Britain on a Friday and Saturday night,” said Inspector Clarke, who has also worked with the Los Angeles Police Department. “I think it’s just in our culture, but we have a serious problem. People in America don’t go out and get hammered in the same way.”

The chief constable of Northamptonshire, Adrian Lee, wants to do something about it. Locally, he has cracked down on drunken youths who commit violence.

He has put police officers on the streets during what is euphemistically known as “the night economy”; placed undercover police officers in bars and clubs to check for underage drinking; and stationed a truck with small cells — a “Mobile Custody Suite” — in the town center on Friday and Saturday nights, so that officers can book violent or incapable drunken youths quickly and then return to the street. (The cells have a small plastic chair and a trench that runs outside, for urine and vomit, which can be hosed down later.)

But Chief Constable Lee, appalled by the public money needed to handle and treat the problem of binge drinking, is also proposing a series of measures for the national government to consider, including a privatized system of “drunk tanks” so that those who are merely plastered can be cared for, sobered up, fined and then charged for the service. It costs the public up to £400 a night to keep a drunken person in jail, he said. Because some 70 percent of alcohol here is currently sold in stores, outside licensed pubs and bars, he also supports minimum pricing for each unit of alcohol, to avoid supermarket “loss leader” sales of cheap alcohol.

For now, that idea has been rejected by the government. But officials say they plan to ban the sale of alcohol at a price lower than that of the tax due on it, promise action against “irresponsible promotions in pubs and clubs” and have increased taxes on frozen “alcopops.”

Chief Constable Lee, who represents the Association of Chief Police Officers on the issue of problem drinking, said there had been a profound social change in Britain, and that what was once seen as amusing behavior had become a serious public hazard.

“I think more people drink and set out to get drunk as a means of entertainment than was the case in the past,” he said. “That always happened, but not in the numbers and volume and the almost normalcy created around, ‘Its O.K. to go out and get so drunk you end up lying on the streets incapable of looking after yourself.’ ”

He said 50 percent of all violent crime in Britain was alcohol-related, and that alcohol was involved in 73 percent of all domestic violence and 25 percent of child abuse cases. Alcohol-related crime is estimated to cost the economy £11 billion a year, or about $18 billion, including £3.5 billion for the National Health Service.

Extending licensing hours, an attempt to create a continental-style cafe culture in Britain, has been a “valid but failed experiment,” he said. The idea was doomed, he said, because unlike in France, many Britons see alcohol consumption as a pursuit in itself, rather than an accompaniment to a meal.

Alastair Campbell, a former tabloid journalist and press adviser to Tony Blair when he was prime minister, considered himself “a functioning alcoholic” until, while the youngest news editor on Fleet Street in the early 1980s, he realized that his first waking thought was related to alcohol. He once passed out in a train station, was arrested and ended up in a hospital, where a psychiatrist helped him confront his problem.

Britain must do the same, he said.

“I always say that as a problem drinker, you only address the problem when you admit you’ve got the problem,” Mr. Campbell said. “And I think we have to do the same as a country: We are a problem-drinking country, and you can only address that problem by saying that out loud.”

Alcohol has become so prevalent among all classes in Britain that “you never have to explain why you drink, but always have to explain why you don’t,” Mr. Campbell said. “What binge drinking is, it’s actually saying the purpose of drinking is to get drunk. And I don’t think you do see that, other than with fairly well-developed alcoholics, in other countries.”

Roger Hampton and Jane Cosby were out on Bridge Street, too, on that Friday night as church volunteers dispensed bottles of water, blankets and pink flip-flops to those who need them. The flip-flops are for the girls in stiletto heels who at some point in the night can no longer walk in them, Ms. Cosby said.

As the police were standing up the bleeding fighters against the brick wall near Bridge Street, two drunken women stumbled by, arm in arm, screaming obscenities. A young man turned toward them, lost his balance and hit the ground. An ambulance arrived.

“You tolerate behavior at 3 a.m. that you wouldn’t at 3 p.m.,” Inspector Clarke said. “It’s not about stopping the drink. It’s about stopping the violence attached to it.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/world/europe/partying-until-drunk-and-disorderly-in-britain.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 12:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It's not going to harm patients without guns to read a poster on a wall or walk by a stand of brochures on gun safety, anymore than it hurts a woman to see the poster that is the topic of this thread.


I do own firearms and so do my wife and we even have grandchildren that come to visit and we see nothing wrong with a doctor addressing the issue of gun ownership and children in the home.

A poster is helpful but no where need the impact of a direct talk with your doctor who also ask all other kinds of personal questions including your drinking and any illegal drug use and even domestic violence issues.

Do you feel comfort and safe at home had been ask of myself, my wife and my 93 years old mother by doctors as a standard question now.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 12:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I see my post was "thumbed down" which hardly hurts my feelings, but, since this thread is not populated by the usual "mad-thumbers" that will thumb down certain members post even if all they contain are "Good Morning, I hope everyone is going great!", this time around I would be interested in learning the reason. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that I have questioned the old saw that rape is not about sex, it's about control or that I had the insensitivity to cite a statistic about the percentage of rapes among women without the obligatory "of course even this small number is totally unacceptable," or "not to minimize the terrible nature of rapes but..."

I actually considered adding the latter proviso to my post but then thought better of it. If the balance of my post (as well as virtually every other post I have contributed on the subject) doesn't clearly indicate that I find rape to be a terrible crime and take it very seriously indeed, a superfluous caveat would not have done the trick.

I'm as tired of members whining about thumbing down posts as anyone else and I hope I'm not coming across in this way. It's just that in this case, I would like to know if my theory is correct.

Sorry, if this is "overkill."
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 12:35 pm
@BillRM,
I don't wish to continue to divert discussion away from the main topic of this thread, There is nothing wrong with a doctor addressing gun safety with a patient. That was never my point, but let's just leave it at that.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 01:09 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It's just that in this case, I would like to know if my theory is correct.
It is probably your claim that .2% of women are raped, because unless you are talking about PER MONTH that is clearly not ok. We all know that you should be using numbers like 25% or 28%. Rape is a huge ******* problem because women are constantly being raped, they need to watch their backs every moment of every day because MEN SUCK!

Now please, get educated. There is no room in this society for rape apologists like yourself. When you diminish the problem of rape, when you refuse to condemn your gender for sucking so bad, you are part of the problem. Only men can stop rape. Do your part, or else!
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 04:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

... women ... need to watch their backs every moment of every day because MEN SUCK!


Women need to arm themselves with guns, learn how to fire a gun, and learn how to aim the gun at the correct anatomical site, so that men ( who rape) can be cured of their "illness".
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 07:33 pm
@Miller,
Quote:
Women need to arm themselves with guns, learn how to fire a gun, and learn how to aim the gun at the correct anatomical site, so that men ( who rape) can be cured of their "illness".


Firearms and alcohol does not mixed any better then alcohol and cars.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2014 10:27 pm
@Miller,
Quote:
Women need to arm themselves with guns, learn how to fire a gun, and learn how to aim the gun at the correct anatomical site, so that men ( who rape) can be cured of their "illness".


Close, women used to be taught that if they were about to be raped they should kick the guy in that exact spot, as hard as possible, then run. Go down fighting was the program. Feminists for what ever reason dont like that plan, I think because so far as they are concerned the more victims they have to minister to the better. " let him rape you, it is not your fault" is what the feminists teach.
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2014 05:48 am
@iamsam82,
Quote:
While it's true that rapists cause rape and not drunk women, are the NHS right to advise women ways to avoid the likelihood of being victims of rape?


Boy, I'd really like to comment on this...
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Aug, 2014 02:19 pm
@nononono,
Is someone stopping you?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Aug, 2014 03:25 pm
The problem in the U.K. does seem to be the excessive drinking.
Quote:
Hobbled but Sober in London
AUG. 3, 2014

Mayor Boris Johnson of London is clamping down decisively on what constituents call “drunken yobs” and what he calls the “booze culture” that too often mars his peerless city’s streets with violent loudmouths and dangerous drivers. The mayor is going ahead with a pilot program allowing courts to mandate that habitual abusers abstain from alcohol while wearing ankle monitors that can track violations.

“Alcohol-fueled criminal behavior is a real scourge on our high streets,” Mr. Johnson declared in explaining why compulsory “sobriety tags” seem a promising technology against rowdy drunkards. The plan is to have up to 150 offenders submit for four months to wearing the monitors, which can sense alcohol in skin perspiration. They are larger than the usual criminal-justice ankle bracelets, with a testing transmitter almost the size of a cigarette pack.

Violators who are detected falling off the wagon or shedding the monitors face possible jail time, but the program will provide advice and help along the way. Participants will have to swear off bathtubs, too, since the monitors tolerate showers but nothing immersive.

The technology is already proved to work, according to American officials in South Dakota, where hundreds of habitual offenders were fitted in recent years with ankle monitors that produced dramatic results, according to Keith Humphreys, a former drug policy specialist at the White House. There has been a 12 percent drop in repeat drunken driving arrests in the state, he told the BBC, and a 9 percent drop in domestic violence arrests.

London’s focus will include inebriates who lapse into punch-outs in pubs as well as habitual drunken drivers. About 880,000 violent incidents linked to alcohol took place in England and Wales in 2012-13, according to government estimates. Mayor Johnson’s program seems firmly in sync with Shakespeare, who wrote: “Drink, sir, is a great provoker.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/04/opinion/hobbled-but-sober-in-london.html?mabReward=RI%3A9&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&region=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine
0 Replies
 
 

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