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Thou or thee?

 
 
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 01:44 am
I have the following sentence, and it doesn't seem to sound right when I use either, though it's probably just me. Which is correct:

"For only through obeying mine order shalt thou gain the knowledge to persevere."

or

"For only through obeying mine order shall thee gain the knowledge to persevere."

or something else?
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Type: Question • Score: 9 • Views: 6,644 • Replies: 22
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 04:03 am
Thou is the subjection, second person singular pronoun, and thee is the objective, second person singular pronoun. So the first sentence is correct

Thou (subjective) art an honorable man, so i give thee (objective) my trust..
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 04:07 am
Her is a useful way to remember: If you can say "he," use thou. If you can say "him," use thee.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 05:00 am
Set is correct. 'Thou' is the nominative case, 'thee' the objective and 'thy' or 'thine' the possessive.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 06:01 am
@Aubert23,
It should also be noted that these pronouns are archaic. They are not ever used in common speech.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 06:03 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

It should also be noted that these forms are archaic. They are not ever used in common speech.



Except among some Pennsylvania Quakers. Smile
George
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 07:07 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Thou hast it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 09:21 am
Get thee behind me, Satan!
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 12:36 pm
@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:
Except among some Pennsylvania Quakers


And in current Yorkshire and Lancashire dialect. (the north of England)

"Where hast tha been since I saw thee?" ("tha" = thou)

Sit thisen dewn = please take a seat. Smile
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 02:06 am
@McTag,

Quote:
Sit thisen dewn


"Thisen", pronounced with the stress on the second syllable, is a version of "thy self".

You're welcome.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 03:27 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Quote:
Sit thisen dewn


"Thisen", pronounced with the stress on the second syllable, is a version of "thy self".

You're welcome.


And "dewn"? Yorkshire dialect "down"?

Dewn with tyranny?
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 09:51 am
@oristarA,

Aye, lad, that's got it reet theer.
George
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 11:39 am
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 12:55 pm
@George,
I think they know how to speak. They just don't know how to speak English.
George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 01:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Hear a Yorkshireman -- or worse -- hear a Cornishman converse.
I'd rather hear a choir singing flat.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 05:00 pm
@George,
George wrote:

Hear a Yorkshireman -- or worse -- hear a Cornishman converse.
I'd rather hear a choir singing flat.



I can't stand Cockneys and even worse, the outer-suburban commuter-belt accent - you know, people from Ruislip, Romford, Croydon, Bromley, Orpington, etc.

George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2014 07:16 pm
@contrex,
An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him.
The moment he talks, he makes some other Englishmen despise him.
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2014 01:32 am
@George,
George wrote:

An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him.
The moment he talks, he makes some other Englishmen despise him.

And makes others accept him, and still others admire him. I suspect this is also true of every other society; I know personally it is true in the USA, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Scandinavia, and Argentina (A posh Buenos Aires lawyer with a Castellano accent may look down on a bus driver who speaks with a Rioplatense accent and uses lots of Quechua loanwords, and vice versa). Every society has its high and low prestige accents, and I suspect that the British case gets a bad rap because it is more widely known.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2014 01:39 am
@McTag,

Quote:
Aye, lad, that's got it reet theer.


As you probably realised, I meant to write "Aye, lad, tha's got it reet theer. "

(Thou hast got it right there.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2014 01:49 am
It's a more complex than that in the United States, where the issue is complicated by region differences and prejudices. I was once watching a documentary at a friend's apartment, and an expert was being interviewed, who had a thick coastal Carolina accent. (Yes, there are distinctions in accents within states, and within social classes within states.) My friend, born and raised in Ohio, observed candidly that although he knew this man to have a doctorate in the topic (zoology) and to be a well-educated and well-spoken man, as soon as he heard the accent, he thought "ignorant redneck." There are similar prejudices, although not as strong, against someone who is thought to have a Midwestern accent. I've known people to be dead wrong about that on many occasions (i.e., the person was not a Midwesterner, or was not identified as such, even though he was. David Letterman is a good example. He is definitely a Midwesterner, from Indiana, but i've had people vehemently argue with me that he is not).

Accents within the American South are, in my experience, more diverse than elsewhere in the country, and more finitely regional. People from the Virginia tidewater, as one example, don't speak the way people do in the Piedmont, nor in the mountains. People from Norfolk (pronounced locally as Naw-fuk) don't speak the same as other people from the tidewater. People from the southwest mountains don't speak the same as people from the eastern mountains. As a general rule, blacks of whatever social class don't speak the same as whites, of whatever social class. People from north Georgia make jokes about people from Alabama implying that they are stupid and gullible. People from Tennessee make jokes about people from Kentucky, who make such disparaging jokes about all of their neighbors, and about one another within the state.

My experience is that accents in the United States are far less likely to reveal social status. They are far more likely to reveal the region of origin. Most intelligent, well-educated southerners i have know have been at pains to lose the "down home" accent when living in the north because of the predictable discrimination which will result from people hearing the accent.
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