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past tense/present perfect tense

 
 
WBYeats
 
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2014 11:32 am
situation:

A writer is dead (whether he died a long time ago or recently). Can I say this?:

-He has not spoken a word in French, but many people say he was proficient in French.
--He has never spoken a word in French...

Do you think the present perfect tense is possible? (The possibility of his speaking French has ceased to be)
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contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2014 01:18 pm
@WBYeats,
WBYeats wrote:
A writer is dead (whether he died a long time ago or recently). Can I say this?:

--He has never spoken a word in French...


He is dead, he no longer exists. We cannot use the present perfect.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2014 08:36 pm
@WBYeats,
Quote:
Do you think the present perfect tense is possible? (The possibility of his speaking French has ceased to be)


Yes, it is possible to use the present perfect ASPECT for such a situation but it is unusual.

See PRACTICAL ENGLISH USAGE by Michael Swan.
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2014 09:45 pm
@JTT,
Thank you Contrex and JTT

but which chapter?
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2014 11:57 pm
@contrex,
Contrex, in English we can say:

-Cicero has written essays.

Cicero is dead, how come the present perfect tense is OK?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 12:51 am
@WBYeats,

Quote:
A writer is dead (whether he died a long time ago or recently). Can I say this?:
-He has not spoken a word in French, but many people say he was proficient in French.
--He has never spoken a word in French...
Do you think the present perfect tense is possible? (The possibility of his speaking French has ceased to be)


I'd say no.
More usual to write "He had never spoken a word in French...", or "He never spoke a word in French..."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 08:04 am
@WBYeats,
Look up PRESENT PERFECT in the index. It's not difficult to find.
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 10:13 am
@JTT,
Thank you Mctag. For JTT,

do you mean in newspapers' privileged language the present perfect could be used?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 10:48 am
@WBYeats,
You'll see it more in newspapers, radio, TV, but it is also possible in everyday speech. Possible DOES NOT mean common. Very rare would be a better description.

The focus is on the important action which causes us to bring that important action into the present, by using the present perfect aspect.
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:02 pm
Thank you~ Can I use the present perfect like this?:

-We've arrived at the station and searched for half an hour.

It sounds like the act of arriving took 30 minutes, which is absurd.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 09:06 pm
@WBYeats,
Quote:
It sounds like the act of arriving took 30 minutes, which is absurd.


No, it doesn't sound like that at all, WB.

It sounds like a person reporting in, the act of arrival being deemed important.

We have arrived and we have searched.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2014 09:15 am
@WBYeats,
WBYeats wrote:

Contrex, in English we can say:

-Cicero has written essays.

Cicero is dead, how come the present perfect tense is OK?


This is the literary present. Shakespeare is dead, so we cannot say he has brown hair, but we can say he writes (or has written) shrewdly about human nature, since his plays exist in the present, as do our reading or attending them.




JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2014 09:37 am
@contrex,
First: He is dead, he no longer exists. We cannot use the present perfect.

Now: This is the literary present. Shakespeare is dead, so we cannot say he has brown hair, but we can say he writes (or has written) shrewdly about human nature, since his plays exist in the present, as do our reading or attending them.

0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2014 10:18 am
If, according to JTT, we can say this:

--We've arrived at the station and searched for half an hour.

Can I say this?:

-This man has been(not the simple past) adopted/taken in and raised for 20 years.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2014 10:25 am
@WBYeats,
In the right circumstances, with the right CONTEXT, yes, you can, WB.
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 12:04 am
@JTT,
um...In what situation? For the station sentence, it's possible because they have searched for just 30 minutes and the whole event is in the close past, unlike the adoption sentence, which spans a period of 20 years. If something happened such a long time ago, it's very unlikely that a native speaker will use the present perfect to link the thing to the present.
Bazza6
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 12:25 am
@WBYeats,
re JTT:
"Shakespeare is dead... we can say he writes (or has written) shrewdly about human nature…"

Yes - the written word 'lives on'. But the original sentence was:
"He has not SPOKEN a word in French…"

'written' I could understand….

I've checked through your Swan reference, and can't find anything to support your contention with regard to the above.

With regard to:
"We've arrived at the station and searched for half an hour."
It seems to me that 'the searching' is the most important action, yet you state:
"The focus is on the important action which causes us to bring that important action into the present, by using the present perfect aspect."
That being so, I would have no qualms with:
:We arrived at the station and have searched/have been searching for half an hour. I think it's time to call the police."

Yet, in your rebuttal, you change BOTH actions to Present Perfect:
"It sounds like a person reporting in, the act of arrival being deemed important.

"We have arrived and we have searched."
So now, both actions are important enough to adopt ( ) and warrant Present Perfect aspect.
I think you need to get out your Swan, and be specific about the paragraph that you consider supports your understanding of the Present Perfect.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 09:33 am
@WBYeats,
Quote:
If something happened such a long time ago, it's very unlikely that a native speaker will use the present perfect to link the thing to the present.


That's very true, WB. However, "very unlikely" does not mean "no chance whatsoever". So as I said, given the right circumstances, the right context, it is a possibility.
0 Replies
 
 

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