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Could any native speakers show the difference between three sentences?

 
 
weiwei
 
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 06:26 pm
1. Before he entered the institute, Jim had served in the army.
2. Before he had entered the institute, Jim served in the army.
3. Before he entered the institute, Jim served in the army.

My teacher told me there is no difference between the meaning of the three sentences, only the second sentence stressing the fact that "Jim served in the army". Could anyone show me the use of past tense and past perfective tense in those sentences, as in [2.] why the speaker uses "before he had entered the institute"?
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McTag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 01:22 am
@weiwei,

I don't like sentence 2; "had" put there there looks awkward to me. You'd need more context to make that work.

Sentence 2 means that Jim's army service came immediately before the time he entered the institute.
Sentence 1 means that his army service COULD have been at another time in his past.
Sentence 3 means the same a. sentence 1.
Bazza6
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 02:22 am
@weiwei,
Look at this sentence:
"He knocked on the door and came in."
The events are in the correct sequence.
For Jim, the sequence of events is:
first, he served in the army
and second, he entered the institute.

However, in (1), that sequence is reversed: we have the second action/event of 'entered' coming first in the sentence, and the first action/event of 'served' coming second.
To show that the time-line is reversed, we use the Past Perfect Tense: "…Jim had served in the army."

In conversation, or informal writing, the use of the conjunctions 'before' and 'after' make it clear which event came first, and came second. We therefore omit the Past Perfect verb form.
Hence, (3) is the informal way of speaking/writing (1), and the meaning is still quite clear: before the institute, he was in the army.

There are ways in which the Past Perfect can be the first verb form in a sentence, but not in (2), and I don't want to complicate this by mentioning those. Let me just say that (2) is incorrect. The Past Perfect is indicating that 'entered the institute' came before some other event…and the conjunction 'before' is indicating that 'served in army' came before institute…so what is this event that 'entered the institute' came before, and did event X come before or after the 'served in army' event?!!!! Too puzzling!
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 02:49 am
@weiwei,
Number Two begins with the anterior past. To assure agreement, it should be written: Before he had entered the institute, Jim had served in the army. The sentence, thus amended, would be perfectly reasonable in certain contexts.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:19 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Number Two begins with the anterior past. To assure agreement, it should be written: Before he had entered the institute, Jim had served in the army. The sentence, thus amended, would be perfectly reasonable in certain contexts.


Reasonable as it is, it sounds a bit awkward. Removing both hads makes it better?
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:19 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I don't like sentence 2; "had" put there there looks awkward to me. You'd need more context to make that work.

Sentence 2 means that Jim's army service came immediately before the time he entered the institute.
Sentence 1 means that his army service COULD have been at another time in his past.
Sentence 3 means the same a. sentence 1.


C&C (cool and clear).
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:21 am
@Bazza6,
Bazza6 wrote:

Look at this sentence:
"He knocked on the door and came in."
The events are in the correct sequence.
For Jim, the sequence of events is:
first, he served in the army
and second, he entered the institute.

However, in (1), that sequence is reversed: we have the second action/event of 'entered' coming first in the sentence, and the first action/event of 'served' coming second.
To show that the time-line is reversed, we use the Past Perfect Tense: "…Jim had served in the army."

In conversation, or informal writing, the use of the conjunctions 'before' and 'after' make it clear which event came first, and came second. We therefore omit the Past Perfect verb form.
Hence, (3) is the informal way of speaking/writing (1), and the meaning is still quite clear: before the institute, he was in the army.

There are ways in which the Past Perfect can be the first verb form in a sentence, but not in (2), and I don't want to complicate this by mentioning those. Let me just say that (2) is incorrect. The Past Perfect is indicating that 'entered the institute' came before some other event…and the conjunction 'before' is indicating that 'served in army' came before institute…so what is this event that 'entered the institute' came before, and did event X come before or after the 'served in army' event?!!!! Too puzzling!


Informative.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 01:51 pm
@McTag,
2. Before he had entered the institute, Jim served in the army.

Quote:
Sentence 2 means that Jim's army service came immediately before the time he entered the institute.


2A. Before he had entered the institute, Jim worked at many different jobs.

2B. Before he had entered the institute, Jim had worked at many different jobs.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 02:03 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
I don't like sentence 2; "had" put there there looks awkward to me. You'd need more context to make that work.

Sentence 2 means that Jim's army service came immediately before the time he entered the institute.


I'm puzzled by your two seemingly contradictory sentences, McTag. First, it's awkward then you immediately have no trouble describing a meaning which I don't believe has to follow. [see my other response to you]

Could you possibly explain further, please?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 02:28 pm
@Bazza6,
2. Before he had entered the institute, Jim served in the army.


Quote:
There are ways in which the Past Perfect can be the first verb form in a sentence, but not in (2), and I don't want to complicate this by mentioning those. Let me just say that (2) is incorrect. The Past Perfect is indicating that 'entered the institute' came before some other event…and the conjunction 'before' is indicating that 'served in army' came before institute…so what is this event that 'entered the institute' came before, and did event X come before or after the 'served in army' event?!!!! Too puzzling!


Incorrect in what manner, Bazza? Doesn't the word BEFORE establish the time sequence. We can't ignore its presence or the timeline it sets. You don't seem puzzled at all.

You wrote,

"For Jim, the sequence of events is:
first, he served in the army
and second, he entered the institute."


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 04:36 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
Sentence 2 means that Jim's army service came immediately before the time he entered the institute.


Before he had entered the institute, Jim had done many things, including serving in the army.
0 Replies
 
 

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