Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 05:36 pm
I'll state my position yet again - Society is not responsible to bail people out of the consequences of their dumb life choices. It is unwise for someone who is very poor to have 15 children. How did she think they would be supported? What was the scenario in her mind for their support? It is also unwise to marry drug dealers or people who are the type to be drug dealers.

From http://tbo.com/news/mother--children-leave-motel-for-new-home-49767

"Ten of the children, she said, were fathered by Garry Brown, currently serving a five-year prison term for dealing cocaine."

Germlat
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 05:44 pm
@Brandon9000,
What if their IQ is low, and they're incapable of making better life choices. Are people with Down Syndrome not entitled to the pursuit of happiness? I'm being a little of a devil's advocate here. Please indulge me. I know some capable and choose are not too but....there are some who simply didn't get genetical, social whatever, advantages you did....lf you had a daughter with Down Syndrome , should you tell her not to reproduce?
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 05:50 pm
@Brandon9000,
I don't think stating it multiple times makes it more or less true.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 06:56 pm
If Phyllis Shafley endorsed it, I'd run the other way.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 07:00 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Having done so, it is discouraging, she does seem ungrateful and neglectful and irresponsible.


Does this make Revelette2 a racist then? Or is that label only reserved for conservatives that get discouraged?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 07:06 pm
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:

lf you had a daughter with Down Syndrome , should you tell her not to reproduce?


Yes? No way in hell I'd allow my down's syndrome daughter to reproduce.
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 07:08 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
No way in hell I'd allow my down's syndrome daughter to reproduce


if everyone felt this way, where would we get new politicians?
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 07:10 pm
@McGentrix,
The law would prevent you from preventing an intervention. Maybe Einstein would've concluded you should not reproduce....based on a relative IQ. What makes you so special? Why do you think you're entitled to the benefits you assume are ONLY for you?
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 09:14 pm
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:

The law would prevent you from preventing an intervention.

Which law would that be?

Germlat wrote:

Maybe Einstein would've concluded you should not reproduce....based on a relative IQ. What makes you so special?


I don't have Down's Syndrome? That would make me special in this case. I didn't say I would stop your mom from having a baby. Your being here is evidence enough of that.

Germlat wrote:
Why do you think you're entitled to the benefits you assume are ONLY for you?


I am not entitled to any benefits. I am an adult white male with a job. Not too many benefits available for those guys. But, should my situation change I would certainly lean on whatever crutches were available until such time as I found new employment or whatever. I am not too proud to say that I wouldn't and it would be silly to say otherwise. I wouldn't, however, allow myself to live solely on benefits paid for by others. Since I was 16, there has been a 2 week gap when I was not employed in some form or another. Pretty sure I have paid in to the benefit system enough that I would not feel any guilt for leaning on it if it became necessary. I also got a vasectomy after our second kid as my wife and I decided we didn't want any more children. I also do not sell or take drugs. Personal choices and personal responsibility.

Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2014 09:59 pm
@Germlat,
Germlat wrote:

What if their IQ is low, and they're incapable of making better life choices. Are people with Down Syndrome not entitled to the pursuit of happiness? I'm being a little of a devil's advocate here. Please indulge me. I know some capable and choose are not too but....there are some who simply didn't get genetical, social whatever, advantages you did....lf you had a daughter with Down Syndrome , should you tell her not to reproduce?

For God's sake, I never said anything of the kind. I have said over and over that people who just have bad luck deserve aid.
Builder
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 12:31 am
People with Down's syndrome are as variable in nature and abilities as the general population. It's not uncommon for them to conceive "normal" average babies without the extra gene.

Quote:
More than 400,000 Americans are living with Down syndrome -- born with three, rather than two, copies of the 21st chromosome, according to the National Down Syndrome Society (NDSS).

Their cognitive abilities are varied -- some are profoundly incapacitated while others are very high-functioning -- but their need for love, affection and acceptance is as ordinary as all adults.

They have an increased risk for heart defects, respiratory and hearing problems, Alzheimer's disease, childhood leukemia and thyroid conditions. But because many of these conditions are now treatable, most now lead healthy lives.

And now, with more social acceptance, a small, but growing number of those adults are taking marriage vows.


Article here
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 06:29 am
@McGentrix,
Down Syndrome is a spectrum disorder. Some are mentally incapacitated and some are not. Many affected with this disorder do not require a guardian ( wether a family member or the court system). To intervene in some cases would be a CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION . All sorts of people with different types of disabilities (blindness, Dwarfism, etc.) can marry, reproduce and live happy and productive lives. Also--Many people with mild mental retardation are never even diagnosed. Challenged and incapacitated are two very different things.

And yes, in most developed countries you are ENTITLED to benefits if you are in a position of need. Examples of just some of benefits:
Social Security
Disability
Unemployment
Housing assistance
Food stamps
Emergency medical care
Public education
Grants for furthering education
There are perfectly decent human beings who receive benefits who are not abusing the system.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 08:25 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
I am not entitled to any benefits.

Laughing
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 08:33 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
Yes? No way in hell I'd allow my down's syndrome daughter to reproduce.

Why not? Down's syndrome is not hereditary.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 10:32 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:


For God's sake, I never said anything of the kind. I have said over and over that people who just have bad luck deserve aid.


I'm curious who decides it's bad luck vs whatever other reason you feel would and should eliminate government aid.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 10:47 am
@Brandon9000,
So I am curious, how would you, if you were in charge, enforce these beliefs? Social workers regularly go out to parents who need it for one reason or another, but I don't think as a result any benefits are taken away for having too many kids when you can't afford it. Sometimes kids are taken away, or benefits taken away if you they are obtained by fraud, but we don't have a behavior court yet such as they do in other countries and I hope we never do. If a spouse is selling drugs, he goes to jail, but the wife and the kids don't have suffer for their bad choice in hooking up with a drug dealer or user by having their benefits taken away.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 10:47 am
@Germlat,
good post.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 11:55 am
My take: she's made choices I wouldn't make but the fact is she's a stay at home mom who lost her support, not terribly unlike those of us who end up divorced or abandoned. It's highly unlikely she could find a job that would pay enough to support them all, including child care while she works, and she doesn't seem to have her own family support that many of us lean on.

My own kids have missed school and doctor's appointments -- I don't see that as inherently neglectful. Maybe she's not grateful, maybe she's stressed to **** because she genuinely loves her kids and wants the best for them but is unable to provide that, and sees the state as intrusive. If she is loving to her kids, and they love her, and she manages to be successful in raising them, then she's provided 15(16?) taxpayers who will most likely pay back whatever she received and then some. If they stay together those odds are way better than if you dump 15 kids in foster care where they will likely be separated and flounder. If they stay intact then they each have an amazing support system throughout life. Long term, I think whoever is trying to help them and keep the family intact is doing the right thing and it doesn't bother me if my tax money goes toward that. Call me a liberal if you like, but family is immensely important to me and I think we should support that whenever we can.
woiyo
 
  0  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 01:54 pm
@FreeDuck,
Having 12 children knowing you have no means of support is not raising a "family".
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 May, 2014 02:25 pm
@FreeDuck,
I don't know, from what I read on the article I posted yesterday, it seems a lot worse than missing a few doctor appointments and a few days of school, they ended up in a hotel because renters refuse to rent to them, the last place they trashed it so bad they got thrown out. I like to think I try to be compassionate, but I also try not to look at every situation in a box with labels on them. We liberals are just as guilty of that as conservatives sometimes.
 

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