Some facts about iraq and saddam

It would appear that many on this post do not remember that we were allies of the Soviets in 1945 and enemies only three years later when the Berlin Airlift began. All this nonsense about the inconstancy of helping Iran one year and helping Iraq the next really shows a lack of understanding of the vagaries of foreign policy.

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Pistoff stated "CIA have overthrown elected Democracies of other Nations and/or have assisted directly &/or indirectly, in installing Right Wing Dictatorships. Aslo, the US supports nations that are brutal Dictatorships right now"

So he is referring to the past and present in the list..... Also its only the past 5-10 years that egypts improved.... the first few years of mubarek werent all that great.....

Also McGentrix I want to remind you of the iran-contra affair. As you will recall it was all about CIA selling arms to humeini's iran, during the iran-iraq war, in direct violation of a UN resolution and embargo that the US itsel sponsored. Let me get this straight, you are saying that saddam was supported to safeguard the region from irans fanaticism, yet in the same conflict we have the US selling arms to both sides. What was it that humeini was safeguarding us against. It seems to me that the US put the embargo in place to monopolize arms trade in the war..... which would support my theory that all the US did during cold war was sell fear and arms to everyone willing to listen.....

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Well, let me also remind you that after Independent Counsel Lawrence E. Walsh's appointment in December 1986, 14 persons were charged with criminal offenses. Eleven persons were convicted, but two convictions were overturned on appeal.

Both the Iran and contra operations, violated United States policy and law. The ignorance of the "diversion" asserted by President Reagan and his Cabinet officers on the National Security Council in no way absolves them of responsibility for the underlying Iran and contra operations.

I make no excuses for the US government. Mistakes have been made and will be made, but fact remains that things are done for reasons of US interests and security.

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McGentrix wrote:

Eleven persons were convicted, but two convictions were overturned on appeal.

What you apparently don't know, or are willing to forget, is that the conviction of Oliver North was not overturned upon appeal, it was set aside by Judge Silberman--then, as now, a stooge to the Republican Party.

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Really?

Oliver L. North - Indicted March 16, 1988, on 16 felony counts. After standing trial on 12, North was convicted May 4, 1989 of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines and 1,200 hours community service. A three-judge appeals panel on July 20, 1990, vacated North's conviction for further proceedings to determine whether his immunized testimony influenced witnesses in the trial. The Supreme Court declined to review the case. Judge Gesell dismissed the case September 16, 1991, after hearings on the immunity issue, on the motion of Independent Counsel.

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That certainly does not qualify as overturned on appeal, which implies a false finding of fact or law, or improper procedural actions. Notice that his conviction was vacated, which in no way absolves him guilt, which is what you were trying suggest.

Your information is not factual. Lawrence Silberman and David Sentelle, sitting on the Court of Appeals for Washington, D.C., vacated the convictions of Oliver North and John Poindexter in 1990 (i had not previously mentioned Poindexter, being uncertain about that at the time i wrote my last post). Gesell denied an appeal by Independent Counsel after this voiding of the conviction. A complete description of the proceedings can be found here.

The three judge panel to which you refer was the Washington Court of Appeals, which voted two to one to vacate, Silberman and Sentelle voting to void the convictions.

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Who said I was referring to North? I got my info Here, and here.

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McGentrix wrote:

Really?

Oliver L. North - Indicted March 16, 1988, on 16 felony counts. After standing trial on 12, North was convicted May 4, 1989 of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines and 1,200 hours community service. A three-judge appeals panel on July 20, 1990, vacated North's conviction for further proceedings to determine whether his immunized testimony influenced witnesses in the trial. The Supreme Court declined to review the case. Judge Gesell dismissed the case September 16, 1991, after hearings on the immunity issue, on the motion of Independent Counsel.

McG wrote:

Who said I was referring to North?

You did.

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No, YOU thought I was referring to North when I said

Setanta wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Eleven persons were convicted, but two convictions were overturned on appeal.

What you apparently don't know, or are willing to forget, is that the conviction of Oliver North was not overturned upon appeal, it was set aside by Judge Silberman--then, as now, a stooge to the Republican Party.

You brought up North, so what was your point in doing so?

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North and Poindexter had their convictions vacated by Silberman and Santelle. That is an entirely different thing than having conviction overturned on appeal. Your statement, if taken at face value, implies that they were wrongfully convicted, and that therfore an appeals court overturned the convictions. In fact, Silberman and Santelle stretched a ruling on limited immunity to make it apply to this case, the Supremes refused to review the decision, and Gesell turned down Walsh's appeal of the order to vacate. If you weren't referring to Poindexter and North, then to whom were you referring?

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My original intention was to demonstrate to yilmaz101 that America makes mistakes and owns up to it. He wanted to use the Iran-Contra affair as an example of American underhandedness.

Had I known it would get your panties in a bunch, I would have changed my statement to simply say "14 persons were charged with criminal offenses" because I didn't want to get into all the intracacies of the Iran-Contra affair, but to respond to "which would support my theory that all the US did during cold war was sell fear and arms to everyone willing to listen....." which is a B.S. statement.

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That "panties in a bunch" comment was unnecessary, McG, but so typical. I simply responded to your statement that two convictions were overturned on appeal--which is not a factual statement. Given your known conservative prejudices, i wanted to assure that no one reading this thread left with the false impression that anyone's conviction was overturned on appeal, as that is simply not true.

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You're right, it was uncalled for and I apologize.

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History? There's one thing we learn from history and that is we don't learn from history.

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Uh
The USA is a business, an Oligarchy. It is protected by the Military and the CIA. Business is furthered by any means deemed necessary, "The "Ends justiy the means" logic. What I resent the most is the blatant lies and shoving of the concept that the USA are the guys in the white hats spreading "freedom and democracy" to the world. It is a disgusting LIE!!!!

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We have a proverb in turkish that goes along these lines:
"history is a chain of repetitions, but had lessons been learned would repetitons have acurred"

It is the wise statesmen that learn lessons from history, and honestly there aren't any wise statesmen left.

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Wise
I feel that Jimmy Carter is a wise statesman..

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McGentrix wrote:

You're right, it was uncalled for and I apologize.

Very honorably said of you, McG--that is not an easy thing for anyone to do, certainly not for me, and i appreciate it.

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Indeed, the most hienous acts committed by Hussien against his own people (ruthless suppression of the Kurd and Shiite uprisings) and the most heinous acts committed by Hussien against others (killing untold numbers by invading Iran) were done with American complicity. Add to that tally the 10,000 to 15,000 innocent civilians we've recently killed, and you begin to comprehend how ironic and farcical the humanitarian justification for the war is.

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What a wonderful world it would be if there was no war, greed or religions.

But, people are [people and as long as they are there will be war, greed and religion. Pity.

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Some facts about iraq and saddam

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