They Wanted Us to Feel as Though We Were Women

Walter - is the avatar you?

Ehh, yes, centuries back, when I was young, intelligent, attractive and beautiful.

I'm not young now anymore

Walter- When I wrote the thread, I was only referring to the story of that one prisoner. I had not been completely informed, nor was I referring to, the rest of what had been going on, the details of which I learned later.

The prisoner in my link was NOT tortured. He was humiliated.

According to the UN-charta, signed and ratified by the USA as well, humilitation is (in line with) torture. (And this is said similar somewhere in one of the Geneva Conventions as well.)

Hairsplitting.

Pheonix,

What happened to this man was a crime by any standards. The purpose was to attack his very identity and self-worth. To him this was worse than being beaten.

To this victim it was torture.

edit: removed a phrase I said in the heat of the moment and regretted.

Oh fuggedaboudit! I was making a point about one particular concept, and I have people jumping all over me. Serves me right, sticking my nose into a hot potato!

Your fine Phoenix, my only hope is that the hot potato was loaded with all the ymmy stuff.

I think the potato is gonna get a lot hotter....

Interesting thread.

My first reaction was: "Is Phoenix really saying this?" "Does she really mean it?".

I read it like: Phoenix critisizes these persons even after they were tortured: "These Iraqis/Arabs/Muslims are incorregible; they think it is terrible to make a man feel as if he were a woman. They think being a woman diminishes them".
Good lord, look at the context!

Do you really expect the average Iraqi male to want to be "in contact with his feminine side"?

I believe that this event will help the anti-American propaganda in Arab countries, depicting the US culture as sexually perverted.

I also think that this was not an isolated event. It didn't surprise at all. This kind of crap happens often in wars, regardless of the countries involved.

It's naïve to think that just because they are defending the "right cause", some soldiers will behave much differently than others.

It's even more naïve, if we take into account that the average American soldier in Iraq knew what he fought against (Saddam Hussein), but doesn't have a clear idea about what s/he is fighting for right now.

I am reacting strongly to the anti-Arab sentiment that this thread is based on.

We have worked hard to end or minimize stereotypes against African-Americans and women. My fear is that we are only replacing these old stereotypes with new ones, in this case against Arabs. This is hardly progress.

One post on this thread talked about the "Arab mind" (as if all Arabs think alike). How would you react if I posted my comments of the "female mind".

This Iraqi's reaction to the torture he suffered is understandable.

His race had nothing to do with it. Any red blooded American male would have had the exact same reaction-- and this is precisely why the Americans acted in this way.

having spent my childhood growing up in a Muslim nation, I do feel I have a bit of sympathy/understanding and offer these tidbits. This, Muslim culture, is strongly rooted in tradition and has great fear of "change-modernization" because it greatly challanges the fundamental folkways and mores of all that has kept the society alive for untold generations. Silly as much of it might seem to us in the west, the simple act of a man farting in public knowledge of his village is enough for him to be forced to leave his village for the remainder of his lifetime (same applies to not having a beard) and yes it's very true this is a very sexist culture but not much more than the christian/jewish other children of Abraham. These men (victims of torture) are now beyond the veil of shame and most likely view themselves as unable to ever attain the beyond death heaven of their beliefs. We, US Military Intelligence/CIA knew this and so used it to our advantage and most likely have caused the death knell of any possibilty of positive influence in the future of Iraq or even the entire middle-east. We blew it folks, the fat lady has sung.

fbaezer & ebrown_p - I am listening intently to your comments, and truly understand where you are both coming from.

Thinking this all through, I have come to a better understanding of why I reacted the way that I did to what the prisoner had said- It comes out of a personal experience that I would rather not discuss.

Please, do not think for one minute that I approve of cruelty and humiliation for the sport of it. I don't.

dys- That was a fascinating insight, that gave me a better sense of why the prisoner reacted as he did. Thanks!

I know that war brings out the worst in all of us, be we there or here. What I don't understand, is why we draw lines and take sides.

I will never forget my discussion with a very close friend who was in the Navy Seals. He told me stories of horror that I couldn't believe. When I questioned him about what he did, he simply looked at me and told me that I had no right to judge. I have thought about Dan and his tour of duty in Viet Nam, and sadly, I realize that he was right.

We all would like to think that we would be noble, and carry the banner, but would we? We are indeed, unknown quantities.

There is absolutely no justification for attacks on Phoenix. I resent it, and see no need for such.

We post things here because thoughts emerge from our collective consciousness and we talk. It's war talk, folks, and as such, we must try and put it in perspective.

We can't, nor can we ever.

Okay, so maybe men would rather be beaten than be made to feel like a woman, in most societies, maybe all societies. But our culture is way superior in the way women are treated.

How close is the rate of pay for women compared to men over there?

The word "superior" is awfully strong when you are talking about millions of other people (who may just feel that their way is superior).

I worry about living the best I can within my own culture. I am very uncomfortable judging other cultures.

The fact that we in the US think we are superior seems to be a cause of the present mess we are in.

Okay, how about "more evolved."

I guess our feelings of superiority have something to do with the mess we're in, but I think it also has to do with the fact that their society is taught to hate us from childhood on.

Can't you see this is racist garbage!?

We have always been talking about "THEM". Although who "they" are changes, these type of broad generalizations to demonize them are the same. Heck, haven't we heard this all before. They (the Japanese) are bloodthirsty and treacherous. They (the blacks) are sex-starved and lazy.

Bigotry is bigotry. Saying they (the Arabs) are taught to hate is just more of the same.

I have been to the Middle East. I have seen more hatred of Arabs in the US than I saw hatred of the Americans in Egypt and Jordan.

Sure you will give me examples to justify your predjudiced statement, but what you said is bigoted because it stereotypes an entire group based on the misunderstanding of a few.

You can find blacks who have commited rape or Jews who are greedy as well as Arabs who are hateful. But any of these characterizations are not only wrong- they are evil.

Bigotry is bigotry. Period.

Ebrown, whilst I applaud your efforts, take it from me that you can't win here. One such discussion led to a three day suspension.

I have been reading this with the fascination of one watching the last veneer of civilization get stripped away.