They Wanted Us to Feel as Though We Were Women

That was a surprise to you, Phoenix?

I am very sure such feelings are not confined to Iraq.

Phoenix,

The US soldiers forced some Iraqis to kneel with their mouths open and forced other Iraqis to masturbate in their faces.

The US soldiers sodomized an Iraqi.

See: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

I think this type of thing is what the prisoner is trying to express displeasure with. He's expresing it in a weird way, and the translation is odd but IMO when he is saying he was made to feel like a woman he is referencing the forced homosexual acts. I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with the way women are viewed.

It's about being forced to open your mouth and have another man forced to masturbate in your face and other sexual degradation.

There's no culture in which this type of thing is acceptable.

I too, would rather be beaten than to be forced into such degradation.

dlowan- Actually, it was NOT a surprise. I think that the point was brought home to me that Iraq is very different from western societies. Also, Iraq has been a secular society since Saddam, so one might anticipate that some of the more primitive cultural mores had been somewhat softened. Apparently, they had not.

I suppose I'm primitive too. I'd not like to be forced to open my mouth to have another man masturbate in my face.

Craven- There was no mention of the forced masturbation in the article that I had read, and I had not yet seen your link. All it said was that the prisoners had been made to stand naked, and spread eagled.

If the prisoner was forced to commit homosexual acts, I certainly can understand his humiliation.

Another thing he could have been referencing is being forced to use female underwear.

That's another thing the US soldiers were doing. There was a systemic effort to use sexual degradation on them because of the religious oriented homophobia in Arab countries.

Frankly, I can't imagine anyone having to be Arab or even heterosexual to prefer straightforward pain and beatings to a concerted assault on dignity using forced homosexual acts.

Well, it looks like there was a lot more to this than I had read.

Here are some examples of the type of thing he's probably talking about.

Two hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners made to simulate oral sex.

Two American soldiers pose (smiling) behind a pyramid of naked Iraqi prisoners.

A pyramid of naked Iraqi prisoners.

Hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners forced to sit on each other's heads.

A female American soldier points at a hooded and naked Iraqi prisoner (being forced to masturbate).

Two American soldiers pose behind a pyramid of hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners.

A pyramid of naked Iraqi prisoners.

Well, certainly these sorts of acts are entirely out of line. The people involved could most probably be charged with war crimes.

IMO, they are just the scapegoats and this is neither isolated nor was it unsanctioned.

The US administration is currently expressing outrage and all, but this is old news that was supressed at the Pentagon's request.

CBS was asked not to publish it and complied until it became clear that other outlets would break the story.

IMO, the ones punished will most likely only be those who had the misfortune of being caught on film.

Is there any credible proof that the behavior of these troops towards prisoners WAS sanctioned?

I am with Craven on this one - I am sure this was part of systematic "breaking" of these prisoners.

Even the military authorities have admitted that lesser forms of this sort of treatment is routine for breaking the will of captives - they were expressing shock that it went to "torture".

There has been comment that the guards in proximity were working under orders from higher up in their treatment.

I wonder where they decide the torture began?

Reports of similar behaviour by British guards (not yet confirmed by the British authorities) support the notion that such treatment may be pretty routine.

I disagree with Craven re the being made to feel like a woman. I think this is an aspect of humiliation for many men - especially when sexually abused - it will be interesting to see what other men here might say. I am certainly aware of many male rape and sexual abuse victims I have worked with (men and boys) saying exactly that - that part of the horror was feeling that their manhood was gone because this was not something they, as men, had ever expected to happen - I by no means feel this was the only aspect, but I believe it is likely to have been AN aspect.

I am unable to comment on whether this feeling might be more likely to happen in strongly Islamic countries.

Iraq is not, to my knowledge, especially misogynistic.

The translation aspect is interesting - since what the Iraqi man is recorded as having said is a little different to what I am used to hearing from men in similar (but less extreme circumstances)

It is going to be interesting to see what the prisoners in Guantanamo say - when and if they can say anything, since the "trials" appear to be planned to occur with major secrecy on what may be reported about treatment there.

Ah - it was CIA I heard of as the "higher-ups."

I'm not sure what you disagree with, what you are saying is in line with what I think.

My position is that the assault on their dignity that came in the form of attacking their maculinity is being expressed in the most simple terms and an attack on their manhood is being expressed by that man as forcing them into the opposite of manhood (being made to feel like a woman).

I think they don't actually mean that being the opposite of a man is so degrading but that the specific indignities they suffered were an assault on their manhood and the man's word choice is a reflection of the binary linguistic nature of man/woman.

For example, I think any of them would prefer to actually be a woman for a day than to have those sexual acts forced on them, which to me would indicate that their qualm is with the sexual acts and not neccessarily with women.

Ah - ok.......

Now you know how your own right wing feels about you.

As a founding member of said right wing may I take the strongest possible exception to the later addition to this sequence of non-posts, which Phoenix - if older than age of consent - should regret, as should other contributors except Craven.

Phoenix - men are getting raped in our own federal prisons ever as you and I have the liberty of typing on to our computers.

Unless you're truly extremely young I find your original political correctness attitude too apalling for words - and on the off chance you're too dense to realize that I'm a woman, I am one.