HoFt- If you looked at my original post, we were discussing an article about a man whose only humiliation was being made to stand naked, and spread eagled. I did not have much more information at that time. I had not seen "60 minutes II", and was really not up to speed on the developing story.
I am well aware that men in US prisons are raped routinely....... mostly by other prisoners. But rape was not the thrust of my thread.
BTW, I am a lot older than the age of consent...you can check that fact with my 19 year old granddaughter!
These repeated attempts to show that American culture is superior to Middle Eastern culture are tedious.
No man wants to be made to feel like a woman. This is true in the United States as well as most of the "civilized" world.
The fact is that refering to a man as a woman is fighting words in any culture including your own, your feminist sensibilities notwithstanding.
There is a even current ad on American television for a car where a man is singing "I feel like a woman" with a strong reaction by his companions. This is making fun of this part of the culture.
The enlightened understanding of a superior culture does not excuse the humiliation of prisioners by American soldiers.
i don't think the subject here is 'humiliation'; i think the problem is men's preoccupation with showing, justifying, and maintaining their 'masculinity'.
if they were more concerned with maintaining a high level of 'humanity', the war could not be perpetuated - there would be no one to fight!
Phoenix wrote:
" man whose only humiliation was being made to stand naked, and spread eagled. "
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BoGoWo, If you put it that way, I don't have a problem with it. We all are preoccupied with showing, justifying, and maintaining our 'masculinity'.
I was objecting to the claim that this was somehow a trait of the culture of Iraq.
Most men in every culture would prefer to be physically harmed than to be made to feel like a woman.
"There is NO excuse for the humiliation of prisoners, from any society!"
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Ceaven I hope you are wrong, that it is just a few sick f&*#’s in uniform.
Hmmmm - not sure why we are discussing possible problems in IRAQIS over this story....what about the attitudes of the torturers...
I think Phoenix in her original post was startled by the non-Western notion that a two-legged hairless biped without power was a female biped.
The American torture of Iraqi prisoners, whether free lance or inspired by the faceless "intelligence community", is contrary to the Geneva Convention as well as Western ethics and mores.
I have many disagreements with our current president, but I was glad to hear that he is also outraged and anxious to uncover and correct whatever was going on.
The Arab mind seems to equate helplessness with being female. In Arab cultures, women lack power and are subservient to men.
In the Western world, particularly among the middle and upper classes, indignities are indignities regardless of the sex of the victim.
Quote:
The Arab mind seems to equate helplessness with being female. In Arab cultures, women lack power and are subservient to men.
Bull! We all equate helplessness with being female. This has nothing to do with the Arab Mind .
An assumption of female weakness is a part of many cultures including our own. The worst insult for my teenage son is to say he does something like a girl. It was less than 100 years ago that we gave women the vote. We have yet to have a female president.
An assumption of male superiority is universal. Anyone who says otherwise is a sissy.
Sadly, I agree with ebrown - pretty much - on one level, at least, and an important one.
I also think that Noddy's comments re the position of women in Arab cultures is somewhat ignorant - many Arab women would disagree - especially re their influence in the family. I do not agree with apologists for the countries in which Arab women have few legal rights, but I still think such sweeping statements are lacking in knowledge.
For a very accurate assessment of the place of women in the Arab world, i recommend:
The Veil of Shame: Women in the Arab World, Evelyne Accad, Naman, Paris, 1981.
Precis, Set? 'Twould be interesting to get a scholarly view of the situation - especially since the thread began as an attack on the presumed views of tortured Iraqi/Arab men.
Setanta- It seems to be out of print.
eBrown_p--
Don't look back. You might be frightened by the future rumbling through.
dlowan--
The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, but the nursery is not a public forum.
phoenix--
This world is not ideal--but it isn't hopeless, either.
Actually, I don't understand at all, what this thread is about.
Well, I understand it - diverting the (most possibly happened) torture to a feministic subject against the victims ...
During the Vietnam war soldiers and sailors preparing to go in country with Navy Amphib Froces were required to attend the Survial, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) training in Campo, CA. Insidents of the trainors losing control and requiring the trainees to perform the same and similar degrading acts was very common. It was also common for the trainees to delcare that the were homosexuals after being required to to this stuff to get out of the training.
It seem to be a human trait when humans have absolute power over other humans.
