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Proof that the Iraqis like US soldiers

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infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 07:45 am
"When I first saw the pictures, I thought they looked fake." McGentrix

<sigh> Is this what Rush and Fox News is telling the lemmings to repeat regarding the torture photos?

"I thought it was rather "convenient" for the left to have these pictures show up." McGentrix

The 'left?' Ah, the photos came from a British journalist in Iraq -- not an operative from the DNC or Kerry camp. Not everything negative about Bush's Iraq war is part of a vast left wing conspiracy.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 07:46 am
McGentrix wrote:
I have never had any formal training in the Geneva convention either, yet I still know what is right and what is wrong.
Quote:


You mean, you have been a soldier, who wasn't taught about the Geneva convention?

Even conscripts, who are just 9 months in the forces (nowadays, I served 18 months Sad ) get at least basical lessons on it. [I suppose, we were taught the complete convention, because we should know our rights when our "red brothers" imprisoned us :wink: - Well, and from the rank of a corporal onwards, you got/get this even examined.)
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 07:58 am
McGentrix wrote:
I have never had any formal training in the Geneva convention either, yet I still know what is right and what is wrong. To use that as an excuse is sad.

When I first saw the pictures, I thought they looked fake. No designations anywhere, no faces on the "prisoners" and no insignia on the GI shirts...I thought it was rather "convenient" for the left to have these pictures show up. Now I am just saddened by the sheer idiocy of some people...


McG

I'm unsure of what your statement implies. Ought we to toss the Geneva Conventions? None of us are born knowing such a set of rules, they are the result of a lot of good minds put to the task of establishing how warfare might be made less barbaric. Soldiers here need to be trained in them just as do soldiers from anywhere. Failure to train soldiers in these rules, and failures to enforce that they comply, has resulted in this mess.

I'm deeply saddened to, but not just at those individuals who were directly responsible. It now looks possible that intelligence and military officials above those individuals may have promoted such acts.

So the failures are multiple. And disastrous.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 08:15 am
I guess what I said wasn't clear...

I meant that one of the soldiers who has been detained said that he had never been trained on the Geneva Conventions rules about how POW's were to be treated. Even I, someone not in the military or had training in the Geneva Convention either, know that you can't do that kind of stuff to POW's. It's not a matter of training, it's a matter of common sense and decency.

As for Infowarrior's mischaracterization of my statement, Razz
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 08:25 am
OK...I agree. Partly. Some folks have tendencies to pathologies like enjoyment at pain inflicted. Or they were unfortunate to grow up in a home where dad beat the poop out of mom every saturday. All the more reason to train and enforce certain values and behaviors.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 08:42 am
Exactly.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:36 am
The latest news coming out is that more than one prison camp in Iraq are being charged with cruelty of prisoners. Will this bust this president or not? Let's see how he wiggles out of this one.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:51 am
From what I've heard it only happened in one prison camp, and only in one building at that camp. Supposedly the instructions were coming from the Central Intelligence Agency people who wanted information from the prisoners. Of course that doesn't make it right, but maybe the CIA people didn't have Geneva Convention training. The soldiers should have been trained, though.

I was talking to a guy who was part of a tank crew during the first Gulf War. He said they had extensive training on the "Rules of War" and what they could and couldn't do. He told me about a training course where his tank had to fire at different targets, and the gunner on top used the .50 caliber machine gun to fire at a human target, which was supposedly a violation. So I also find it hard to believe that soldiers are saying they had no training.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 10:00 am
Tar, I just heard the news on this morning's radio, so I didn't have a chance to confirm the speaker or the program that made the claim.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 10:04 am
Well my information is from yesterday so I guess you are more up to date than I am.
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 10:19 am
The soldiers who claim they had no Geneva training (a fact corroborated by the military that is prosecuting them) are reservists.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 10:39 am
Do you really need Geneva training to know you shouldn't take pictures of yourself humiliating POW's? Much less humiliate POW's?
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 11:00 am
I read something yesterday that said there was actual torture going on. And the British were doing it too. I don't understand how soldiers from supposedly civilized countries could do such things.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 11:06 am
McGentrix wrote:
Do you really need Geneva training to know you shouldn't take pictures of yourself humiliating POW's? Much less humiliate POW's?


Not at all, McG.

I'm just clarifying which ones did and which ones did not have Geneva training.

An aquaintence of mine who works in Army intel with interrogators said that it's no big deal, but that they'd usually not be stupid enough to get caught.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 12:32 pm
Quote:
xxx SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON TORTURE SERIOUSLY CONCERNED BY REPORTS OF ABUSE OF IRAQI PRISONERS BY COALITION FORCES xxxxxxxxxx
3 May 2004

The Special Rapporteur on the question of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, Theo van Boven, issued the following statement today:

The Special Rapporteur on torture is seriously concerned about recent reports of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of Iraqi detainees by United States of America and United Kingdom military forces serving under the Coalition Provisional Authority.

The freedom from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment is a non-derogable right. The prohibition of torture is explicitly affirmed in article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, as well as in the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, relating to the treatment of prisoners and protection of civilians, and in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

The Special Rapporteur calls upon all countries with forces serving in Iraq to take prompt and effective steps to investigate, prosecute and impose appropriate sanctions on any persons guilty of the alleged violations, as well as provide an effective remedy and adequate reparation for the victims of these abuses.

SOURCE
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 12:39 pm
There is an interesting update in the Christian Science Monitor, which assembles all the latest news:

link to CSM article
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 12:56 pm
Tar, It seems the charge against the coalition forces pretty much confirms the claim that mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners happened at more than one location - according to Walter's post. I think it's a pretty safe presumption.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 03:24 pm
Tarantulas wrote:
I read something yesterday that said there was actual torture going on. And the British were doing it too. I don't understand how soldiers from supposedly civilized countries could do such things.


we are in perfect agreement. I'll alert the media :wink:
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 04:06 pm
* giant flaming toads rain down from the sky *

Very Happy
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