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If Kerry lied, would it matter?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 12:55 am
coluber, I will be unsurprised if Kerry's military record eventuates to serve him less well than have the pathetic and utterly failed attempts by some on the left to impune Bush by the casting of aspersions on his military record served those pressing the unsubstantiated, and now repudiated, allegations. It seems that when "Pulling the trigger", the one thing the Democrats are most likely to hit is their own foot.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 06:24 am
I seriously doubt in these dangerous times if too many folks are going to be worried about Kerry and his medals for a war that most American's were against at the time or what kind of car he drives or the kind of inane responses he gives when questioned about those silly issues. If it gains life and becomes a topic for news programs I will be very surprised and disappointed.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 06:32 am
I've heard a lot of crap in defense of the shrub. But the garbage being spewed on this thread is without doubt the biggest pile worthless steaming crap that I've ever read in my life.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 06:43 am
Ah, the fog of war and politics, what kind of campaign would be have without the fog. Now where is that old trenchcoat of mine? I think I shall need the tall boots as well.
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 06:50 am
This is a good thread.
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 07:15 am
Wilso, there is no "defense" going on, just just mention that the factual record does not support cerain allegations. Charges are not convictions, no matter how strongly one wishes to believe other were so. Emotional outburst often is more gratifying to some than is dispassionate appraisal. While I do not ascribe to your political sentiments themselves the quality of garbage, the manner in which you express those sentiments is another matter alltogether. Throwing a tantrum is not presenting an argument, but rather diminishes the one so engaged, to the detriment of the argument that one would support. Your practice in such regard far more benefits your opponents than your position.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 07:25 am
Kerry has repeatedly said it was not his own medals that he threw over the White House fence but that it was some other medals--"I am proud of my medals' he said. All the network and cable TV news this morning have reported how Kerry has now changed his story. When confronted this weekend, Kerry now says he did throw some of his ribbons but not his medals. No biggie. It happened more than 30 years ago when Kerry was 27, but it was this year that Kerry lied out of political expediency and got caught with his own words.

It was the same this past week when Kerry blared out to environmentally minded listeners that he would never own an SUV when "his family/wife" in fact owned one. No biggie. It is a technicality, but it could appear that Kerry lied out of political expediency and got caught.

Last week Kerry also blared out to another group of listeners that he has not run any negative ads and that he has been 100% positive in this campaign. The Bush campaign has countered that with their own ad showing Kerry saying that in his own words and then using Kerry's own blatantly negative words from numerous Democrat ads that have been aired more than 28,000 times to date. Kerry lied for political expediency and is caught with his own words.

We all grow and learn and change our minds about things over time. But it has been well documented that Senator Kerry supported or did not support numerous issues in which presidential candidate Kerry, a year or less later, now professes the opposite view. Again the reason seems to be political expediency and it calls into question his honesty of conviction then or now.

For good or bad, for better or worse, George W. Bush has consistently been what he claims to be and has been who he says he is. So far, nobody has been able to show that he has stated to the American people anything other than what he believed to be the truth.

Yet some still think Kerry is the trustworthy one. Amazing.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 07:30 am
Quote:
For good or bad, for better or worse, George W. Bush has consistently been what he claims to be and has been who he says he is. So far, nobody has been able to show that he has stated to the American people anything other than what he believed to be the truth.

You really should write for the sitcoms.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:26 am
It is not about Kerry but about Bush. I don't believe it is anything to brag about that one can stick to their original plans or convictions when those convictions were wrong in the first place. Another name for it is stubbornness which has no place when you hold the lives of human beings in your hands.

IMO those statements of Kerry's are just bad responses or campaign stratergy (xspell) decisions, the decisions and comments made by Bush right now are things that effect people's lives. That is the difference and if people get all bent out of shape about those silly issues of Kerry's and forget the real important things, then again, the people that vote for him almost deserve what they get because enough people have now been speaking out even those from inside the administration.
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:39 am
I don't think its "about Kerry" or "about Bush" at all; I think its all about the irrational lengths some have gone to in their dislike for Bush and/or his policies. Far from aiding their own cause, folks given to such indulgence discredit that cause in the minds of the undecided ... which is perfectly fine by me. Go ahead, kids, keep it up. You're doing a great job, and we on The Right really appreciate your help. Thanks.
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suzy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:44 am
What's to like, Timber?
How do you possibly trust this guy Bush?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:45 am
Quote:
Where I surf is not the thesis of this thread Blatham.


Who said it was? You made a conveniently self-aggrandizing claim about the breadth of your reading - a claim which, trust me, readers here know is not credible - and then you posted from Drudge. Quite funny, really.


Quote:
For good or bad, for better or worse, George W. Bush has consistently been what he claims to be and has been who he says he is. So far, nobody has been able to show that he has stated to the American people anything other than what he believed to be the truth.


This paragraph is evidence of what I just wrote.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:50 am
The thing is that those who 'speak out' against policy from inside the administration only verify my opinion that this administration is open and allows criticism and disagreement, something we did not see in the previous administration. If Bob Woodward's book shows nothing else, it shows that the president does ask for and listens to the opinions he should be asking for and listening to. That they don't all walk in lockstep and that one here or there is allowed to disagree speaks well for his leadership. Those of us who support Bush recognize that.

Those of us who support Bush don't want a president who cuts and runs the first time things get difficult. They don't want a president who would put U.S. forces under foreign command or a president who lacks the courage of his convictions when U.S. security is at stake. And, while cooperation and coalitions are necessary in a shrinking world, there are some who think there are times that the USA should not ask anybody else's 'permission' to do what is the right thing to do.

There are some of us who know there would have been more 9/11s by now if some had been in charge instead of the current administration. And there are some of us who aren't complacent and think that 9/11 was a one time deal. It is those of us who want a strong leader of conviction who recognizes and is prepared to address the dangers who will vote for GWB in November.

I allow for mistakes and missteps. As has been the case in every war the U.S.A. has ever prosecuted, there have been glaring errors and mistakes in Iraq. Television and on the spot coverage just makes it look worse this time. It isn't.

While there are several things I wish Bush could or would do better or differently, I do appreciate a president who tells the truth. I think we have a president who tells the truth.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:53 am
You can prattle on and try to make me the issue all you wish Blatham. I prefer, however, to stay with the thesis of the thread.

And whatever you think of Drudge, turns out he was dead on accurate re his heads up promo that started the thread.
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suzy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:55 am
"this administration is open"?
certainly not about our energy policy!
Not about 20+ pages of saudi complicity
Not about letting people testify to the 9/11 commission
How do you consider that "open"?
Or, even better, honest?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 08:59 am
foxgyre

sweetie...the chances of you even perceiving, or looking for, let alone acknowledging, the long and consistent trail of deceit from Georgie (Harken on up) are close to zero. That's fine, you seem content with this world-view, but those of us who actually do read with some breadth and depth are bound to find your behavior at least curious, in a peripheral sort of way.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 09:01 am
Then darlin', how about enlightening us with some verifiable facts rather than with innuendo and supposition? I am open to being persuaded.
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suzy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 09:07 am
Do you feel it was fair representation to let Cheney hammer out an energy policy for we the people in secret with a bunch of energy honchos?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 09:10 am
Start here...you have a lot of reading ahead
Quote:
FROM THE WASHINGTON POST
December 18, 2003; Page C03
"Trust Buster"
By Godfrey Hodgson

George Washington, at least according to Parson Weems, never told a lie. Subsequent presidents, as David Corn admits, have not always lived up to his standard. In a rich gallery of examples, we remember Lyndon Johnson (the Gulf of Tonkin), Richard Nixon ("I am not a crook"), Ronald Reagan ("I did not trade arms for hostages"), George H.W. Bush ("Read my lips: no new taxes") and, of course, Bill Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman").

It is Corn's contention, however, that George W. Bush not only knows how to lie but has done it on a grander scale, deliberately, systematically and to good effect, ever since he entered politics, and before that, too. "George Bush is a liar," he begins. "He has lied large and small. He has lied directly and by omission. He has misstated facts, knowingly or not. He has misled. He has broken promises, been unfaithful to political vows. Through his campaign for the presidency and his first years in the White House, he has mugged the truth -- not merely in honest error, but deliberately, consistently, and repeatedly to advance his career and his agenda."

Corn alleges that between his (unsuccessful) campaign for Congress in 1978 and his campaign for governor of Texas in 1994, Bush changed his position on abortion from "pro-choice" to "pro-life"; that he claimed to have been in the Air Force when he was in the Texas Air National Guard; and that he lied about an arrest for drunken driving. Corn also contends that in the 2000 South Carolina primary, Bush allowed his staff, if he did not order them, to put about the crudest calumnies about his dangerous rival, Sen. John McCain. He maintains, too, that the president did not speak the truth when he said he did not meet Kenneth Lay (of Enron) until after 1994, when records (so Corn says) show that Bush's oil venture company, Spectrum 7, was a partner with an Enron subsidiary in Texas in 1986.

Corn, the Washington editor of The Nation, makes no pretense of political impartiality. This is a fierce polemic, but it is based on an immense amount of research. In my judgment it does present a serious case for the president's partisans to answer in relation to both domestic and foreign policy, a case that ought to be in voters' minds when they cast their ballots in the 2004 presidential election.

On the home front, the president has systematically advocated tax cuts as if they would make a real difference to broad swaths of the American people. In reality, as Corn and many others have shown, their benefits will go overwhelmingly to a small percentage at the top of the economic tree. For example, the proposed tax cuts would give more than $93,000 to a family with a million-dollar income, while half of all taxpayers would receive $100 or less. According to the Financial Times, the stimulus the cuts can be expected to give to the economy would be "negligible." When this is pointed out, the president and his men mutter reflexively about "class war."

In individual cases, Bush's misrepresentation of the impact of legislation verges on the absurd. For example, he boasted that he would "eliminate the death tax" (the Republican phrase for estate tax) "to keep family farms in the family." The picture is of weeping towheaded kids evicted by agents of an unfeeling bureaucracy from crimson-painted homesteads amid the cottonwoods. But under current laws a farm couple can pass on a farm worth more than $4 million untaxed if their heirs continue to work it for 10 years. The IRS states that "almost no working farmers" owe any estate tax. Even such a farmer-friendly outfit as the American Farm Bureau cannot cite a single example of a farm sold because of estate tax. Politics, not agrarian distress, lay behind this myth.

The cynicism with which foreign policy has been sold to the American public, Corn shows, is even more barefaced. Understandably, perhaps, the Bush administration underestimated civilian casualties in Afghanistan. Less forgivably, its spokesmen, from Vice President Cheney down, persistently hinted that the 9/11 terrorist Mohamed Atta met Iraqi agents in Prague, thus justifying an attack on Iraq, though there appears to be no evidence that this is true, and reason to believe that Atta traveled to Prague to buy a cheap air ticket to the United States.

More generally, the president and key officials in his administration have shuffled and equivocated in almost all they have said about the decision to invade Iraq. It is clear that decision was taken long before Sept. 11, 2001. It seems to have been taken not because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (as it now appears he did not, at least when the war began) or because he might pass them to al Qaeda (with whom he was on the worst of terms), or even because he was a vicious tyrant -- that, after all, had not stopped the United States from tilting toward him in 1983 -- but to fit in with what looks like a naive neoconservative dream that war in Iraq would produce a peaceful, democratic Middle East.

Readers can hardly avoid drawing three troubling conclusions from Corn's painstaking indictment. The first is that the Bush administration has been even more willing than its predecessors to spin, prevaricate and, if necessary, coldly lie for its own advantage. The second is that, with honorable exceptions, the American news media have not lived up to their reputation for hard-nosed skepticism when it comes to challenging the administration's claims. The third is more troubling still. It used to be unacceptable to accuse presidents and Cabinet secretaries of wholesale lying. But now Corn is by no means alone in throwing that word around. Indeed a whole literary genre has come into existence: political-lie porn. Al Franken's "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" is a bestseller, while from the other side of the fence Ann Coulter screams back "liberal lies" like a conservative fishwife in the same billingsgate. A political culture in which lies and charges of lying are thought normal is a dangerous one. Weimar was one such, and it was Adolf Hitler who learned how to exploit it. The currency, not only of lying but also of charges of lying, suggests just how viciously polarized American politics has become, and 2004 is not yet here.

Hodgson is an associate fellow of the Rothermere American Institute at Oxford University and author of "The Gentleman from New York."
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
********************************
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2004 09:11 am
But you won't
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