31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Apr, 2014 11:51 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

That book deals about the CIA.


This would be the same CIA that apparently had no knowledge of a recent Al Qaeda international conference in Yemen? It seems likely that this idiocy in Ukraine is an attempt to draw attention away from the CIA's incompetence in their day job.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2014 07:28 am
@hawkeye10,
Do you have proof of any of your posts? Or just vague things like well the US was over there therefore they must have been pushing the oligarchs to align with Europe? It couldn't possibly be that the Oligarchs simply saw economic advantages in aligning with EU? And btw, what do we get out of them aligning with EU in any case besides ticking off Russia who we sort of need for Iran and Syria and other important things? The whole blaming the US for everything coming and going is just wearisome.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2014 08:12 am
@hawkeye10,
source?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2014 10:44 am
The talks in Geneva seem to be surprisingly (at least for me) quite successful ...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2014 10:49 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
Do you have proof of any of your posts?
Proof is an unreasonable demand when so much is secret, not told to regular people. I have evidence, such as statements around the 2008 NATO summit that clearly has the USA pushing hard for Ukraine membership and Europe objecting, as well the released "**** the EU" phone call.

Quote:
It couldn't possibly be that the Oligarchs simply saw economic advantages in aligning with EU?
or thought they saw, as we know Croatia expected that being in the EU would be a good thing but it has not turned out that way. I dont see this as a valid argument, as it makes no sense. Ukraine can not compete with hardly anyone in the EU, the infrastructure is a disaster, and they dont have either the ideas nor the skills to bring viable products to market. This is no different than how the Ukraine can not compete with anyone on grain anymore, it is of such poor quality that it can only be used for animal feed. Almost all observers have it that the only way Ukraine can survive is to be a middle man between the EU and Russia, and so pissing off the Russians and having the Russian EU relationship in trouble is pure disaster for Ukraine. If the Oligarchs actually bought the story the USA was selling for over two decades that getting close to the EU at the expense of Russia was good for them then they bought a bill of goods.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2014 11:08 pm
For those who make the specious argument that there is some sort of "historical" precedent for Russia invading modern Ukraine and the idiotic argument that Putin is combating fascist leaders of an illegal coup (Leftists in the main) here's this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/17/jews-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine/7816951/
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 12:10 am
It really seems that diplomacy has triumphed and led to a breakthrough that could de-escalate the crisis in Ukraine.

On the other hand: it seems to be quite unrealistic, too, that the severe tensions in East-Ukraine can be solved by talks in Geneva.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 01:35 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
From the comment @ Haaretz: Jerusalem & Babylon / We are living in the best time in history for Jews
Quote:
There's no guarantees that physical persecution of Jews won’t make a comeback, but today it is only one of the more minor strands of xenophobia and racism still blighting humanity.
[...]
But only two days passed before allegations of anti-Semitism in Ukraine were once again on the agenda. This time it was in Donetsk, a much larger city in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russian separatists and forces loyal to Kiev are fighting for control of the region. An invisible hand distributed some flyers accusing the Jews of the city of having sided with the “Banderist” fascists and instructing them to register and list their property with the new separatist authorities and pay a registration fee.

The “People’s Republic of Donetsk” denied it had anything to do with the flyers distributed in its name, but was their denial valid? Was it a local initiative to scare the city’s large Jewish community into fleeing or was this a counter-provocation from the anti-Russian side, taking a page this time out of Vladimir Putin’s playbook? Not directed at the Jews at all but intended to smear the separatists?
[...]
... . And while the most obvious conclusion would be that the hatred of Jews is alive and well, I would argue that the real lesson is that the Jews, anywhere in the world, have never been safer at any point in history. I know that sounds counter-intuitive in the wake of recent events, but the very obscurity of Cross, his near-complete isolation on the outermost fringes of America and the fact that so many non-Jews can be found using the facilities and enjoying events at many Jewish community centers, proves just how the Kansas City shooting was an aberration.

In Ukraine, where there have been some individual attacks on Jews and acts of vandalism in the last few months (a far cry from the pogroms and organized persecution of just about every previous generation in the last millennium,) something has happened that is unique in the bloody history of Jews in that land. For the first time, anti-Semitism is something to be ashamed of; every political party, pro-Russian or pro-Kiev, including even the most right-wing ultra-nationalists, are doing everything possible to avoid being tainted with judeophobia, promising that police, militias, armies will be deployed to defend their Jewish neighbors.

In America, hate-crimes are almost always directed at other minority groups; in western Europe, Muslims, Asians and blacks are usually the targets; in Hungary, where the anti-Semitic Jobbik party made impressive gains in the elections two weeks ago, the Jews are secure and confident that the government will not allow any harm to come to them, unlike the Gypsies (Roma) who are frequent targets of racist, often murderous violence.
[...]
Two generations ago, there was no question which religion was the most persecuted in the world, but today, in just about every country where there still are Jews, they are protected by the authorities, or they don’t need protection and open anti-Semites are shunned and marginalized. Even the anti-Semitism which is rebranded and channeled into anti-Zionism is grossly exaggerated by the media, not causing any tangible damage to Jews or the Jewish state.

History gives us no guarantees that the physical persecution of Jews won’t make a comeback in the future, but at present we have to recognize that anti-Semitism, while unique in its roots and past, is today only one of the more minor strands of xenophobia and racism still blighting humanity. This is a cause for celebration, not digging in deeper and insisting that the line in the Haggadah, “for in every generation they rise against us to destroy us” must always remain our guiding light.

Some Jewish leaders are finally beginning to understand that. Last week, Richard Benson, the former chief executive of Britain’s Community Security Trust, the body that monitors threats to the Jewish community and prevents links with racist movements, was appointed co-chairman of Tell MAMA, the body tasked with battling anti-Muslim hate crimes. In this blessed age, when Jews have never been safer, it’s time to recognize that there are many other victims of racism and prejudice and let others benefit from our hard-earned expertise in facing hatred and winning.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
On the other hand: it seems to be quite unrealistic, too, that the severe tensions in East-Ukraine can be solved by talks in Geneva.
the prime driver of the current chaos in Ukraine is 20+ years of the USA disrespecting and disregarding Russia in spite of any affection Bush might have had for Putin. Perhaps this will change and while I would not count on it talks in Geneva could go far towards solving the instability in Ukraine.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
There are signs the situation may have got out of the control of the big players.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2014 03:43 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

There are signs the situation may have got out of the control of the big players.
Ya, I saw that. Great, then Putin would get to be right yet again, when he warned that the bosses in Kiev and the West were playing with the threat of civil war. How soon the memory of the unraveling of Yugoslavia fades.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2014 06:14 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Proof is an unreasonable demand


Enough said.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2014 06:41 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
There are oligarchs who control significant parts of the large companies," he said.Yet many of those oligarchs are in favor of moving closer to Europe because they fear Russian influence. For them, it would be a nightmare scenario if Russia annexed eastern Ukraine, where much of the Soviet-era industry they plundered is located.

Their political leanings are far from altruistic, however. "They clearly understand that if a split were to hypothetically happen, their Russian oligarch neighbors would gobble up their wealth," said Vitaly Chernetsky, a University of Kansas professor and president of the American Association for Ukrainian Studies. "Ukraine being an independent state and not splintering is a guarantee for them."


source
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2014 06:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Geneva deal appears meaningless on battle lines
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2014 07:26 pm
The key question is what do the MAJORITY of Ukrainian people want, namely to break with Russia or not?
I just read a Daily Express article but it was sloppy and didn't say.
Does anybody at A2K know?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2014 09:06 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

The key question is what do the MAJORITY of Ukrainian people want, namely to break with Russia or not?
I just read a Daily Express article but it was sloppy and didn't say.
Does anybody at A2K know?


It is not that simple, some people are legally both Ukrainian and Russian, and some are legally Ukrainian but consider themselves to be Russian.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2014 07:47 am
US warns Russia over Ukraine as Moscow announces military exercises

The crisis in Ukraine deepened further overnight following the departure of the US vice-president, Joe Biden, from Kiev after a two-day visit.

In a late-night phone call, the US secretary of state, John Kerry, told the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, of his "deep concern over the lack of positive Russian steps to de-escalate" the crisis in eastern Ukraine, a state department official said.

Kerry also called on Russia to "tone down escalatory rhetoric".

But Russia says Kiev's new leaders – whom it regards as illegitimate – are to blame for the collapse of the peace accord brokered in Geneva, which many hoped would avert Ukraine's slide into civil war.

Moscow maintains the accord was ruptured by ultranationalists – who were involved in months of protests that led to the ousting in February of Ukraine's pro-Kremlin president, Viktor Yanukovych – who killed rebels in an attack on Sunday near the eastern town of Slavyansk.

On Wednesday morning, Russia's defence ministry announced on state news wire Interfax that the navy had launched snap military exercises involving its fleet in the Caspian Sea.

The drill will last seven days and involve around 10 naval vessels and 400 sailors. The Caspian Sea is bordered by Iran, Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan – a region that is crisscrossed by oil and natural gas pipelines.

Ukraine relaunched military operations against pro-Kremlin separatists late on Tuesday, hours after Biden ended his visit to Kiev in which he warned Russia over its actions in the former Soviet republic.

Ukraine's acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov, said he was ordering the military to restart operations against the rebels after the discovery of two "brutally tortured" bodies in Slavyansk.

One of them, he said, was that of a recently kidnapped local councillor from a nearby town who belonged to his party.

The US defence department at the same time announced it was sending 600 troops to neighbouring Poland and to Baltic countries for "exercises".

Russia already has tens of thousands of its troops massed on Ukraine's eastern border and has boosted the number of snap military drills since tensions have risen with neighbouring Ukraine.

Nato has said Russia's military exercises in its western military district have boosted its troop presence to around 40,000 near the border with Ukraine.

The latest moves underscored the severity of the crisis that has brought east-west relations to their most perilous point since the end of the cold war.

In a further slide back towards violence, which many fear could tip into civil war, a Ukrainian reconnaissance plane was hit by gunfire while flying above Slavyansk.

The Antonov An-30 propellor-driven plane received several bullet impacts, but safely made an emergency landing and none of its crew members was hurt, said the defence ministry in Kiev.

The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which has monitors in the country, also said that rebels had abducted a police chief in the town of Kramatorsk – calling it the sort of "provocative" action that "can only worsen the existing tensions and contribute to further violence".

Biden, in his news conference after meeting the Kiev authorities, warned Russia of isolation if it continued trying to "pull Ukraine apart", underlining a US threat to impose further sanctions on Moscow.

"We have been clear that more provocative behaviour by Russia will lead to more costs and to greater isolation," said the vice-president.

In a separate development, Sweden, which is not a Nato member, announced on Tuesday it was increasing defence spending because of the "deeply unsettling development in and around Ukraine". It plans to boost its fleets of fighter jets and submarines.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2014 09:42 am
@revelette2,
The situation seems to become "Lebanese" (= similar to the Syrian occupation of Lebanon in 1976, which only ended in April 2005), only in a bigger scale.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2014 11:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The situation seems to become "Lebanese" (= similar to the Syrian occupation of Lebanon in 1976, which only ended in April 2005), only in a bigger scale.
complete with Ukraine aping Lebanon's pretty much non existent government. I was reading an opinion last week that concluded that "Ukraine" should get not one dime till they make an attempt to hold an election and put in place a legit government, but it is certainly optimistic to hope that any such government would be strong enough to project anything outside of Kiev. In fact increasingly Ukraine looks like Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2014 09:37 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Pictures of the uniformed green men taking over Ukrainian government buildings seem to be the same men who took over in the Crimea. Putin has admitted he took Crimea, but if he has Russian soldiers in other parts of the Ukraine to pled with Russia to save the Russians who live in Russia, in a charade claiming he needs to restore order to the areas where he has sent agitators, the only thing I can say is, Why did this country ever think Russia would be happy relinquishing their status as a world power??
 

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