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Porn - degrading to women? or"the all you can eat salad bar"

NSFW Forums: Philosophy, Porn, Pornography
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 12:37 pm
Piffka wrote:
Amazing to me that there can be a discussion of the merits of pornography while everyone is, at the same time, totally offended by the sexual degradation of Iraqi prisoners.

Does anybody else see this as weird?


See voluntary versus forced. It's a critical difference.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 12:40 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Piffka wrote:
Amazing to me that there can be a discussion of the merits of pornography while everyone is, at the same time, totally offended by the sexual degradation of Iraqi prisoners.

Does anybody else see this as weird?


See voluntary versus forced. It's a critical difference.


But who is to say how many porn "artists" don't feel forced or coerced?
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David Henry
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 12:43 pm
dyslexia wrote:
[
is this a form of birth-control? I am not familiar with ritualistic homicidal marriage; but yeah if that's what they want and no one else is harmed, it's none of my concern. I do guess that I would consider it kinky but that's as far as I am willing to go.


Get with the program champ...HOMICIDAL suggest MURDER...these people where child killers....and they enjoyed it, they stated the reason they did it was that it represented a bizarre form of ritulaistic marriage....so is this ok because they enjoyed it?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 12:45 pm
piffka wrote:
But who is to say how many porn "artists" don't feel forced or coerced?


Dunno, but I think that's wholly irrelevent in a comparison to people who actually are physically forced and coerced, not just "feeling" that way while being paid for it and while being able to take breaks and demand that they not be murdered.

Remember, some of the abuses in the prisons are not just coerced but physical and forcible penetration.

Comparing it to "feelings" of being coerced on the paret of people who are paid for their time is, IMO, to seriously cheapen the notion of forcible rape.

You are comparing people who get paid and who can decline at any time to people enduring forced treatment for days that ended up in death and rape.

I think that if you think about it you'd judge the comparison as absurd.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 12:54 pm
David Henry wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
[
is this a form of birth-control? I am not familiar with ritualistic homicidal marriage; but yeah if that's what they want and no one else is harmed, it's none of my concern. I do guess that I would consider it kinky but that's as far as I am willing to go.


Get with the program champ...HOMICIDAL suggest MURDER...these people where child killers....and they enjoyed it, they stated the reason they did it was that it represented a bizarre form of ritulaistic marriage....so is this ok because they enjoyed it?

ok, bye
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squinney
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:00 pm
I'm going to attempt to answer without reading the articles cited and then read to see if my opinion changes.

First, yes, I find pornography degrading to both men and women. I don't think it is possible to view pornography, especially graphic weird stuff, and not have it degrade ones self in some way, not just the degrading of others. Just that those pictures are in your memory taking up valuable space is degrading to my mind. In other words, I have better things to store in my memory

I can't imagine the porn stars having high self esteem, or otherwise feeling good about themselves at the end of the day. They may have money, but where is their dignity? At what cost?

Once viewed, it does seem to me that it would have an effect on interactions with others. It may not mean that rapes increase, or that everyone suddenly buys clown outfits and leather whips. But at some point I would think that it would become a stimulant replacement that takes away from the loving act that sex is supposed to be between two people. Kinda like the old punchline "Eat, eat, eat. Doesn't anyone want to f any more?" When it takes more and more "weird stuff' to stimulate one sexually, what happens to "making love?" (Okay, maybe I'm a hopeless romantic!)

I referred to someone the other day as a "gal" and littlest cub (male) said "Mom, you said Gal. Isn't that a little disrespectful?" Now, you know Bear didn't teach him that, and I never would have thought to since I don't usually talk that way, but he must have been taught it somewhere. If a 13 year old knows that referring to an older female as a Gal is disrespectful, imagine if he knew about graphic pornography. At what point does the downhill slide to immoral, anything goes start and end? At what point do we draw the line as to how we show (and teach) respect for other human beings?

I'll go read the articles now, but my stance at this time is that yes, it is degrading and that it does have a negative affect on society. We may have discovery channel, but that doesn't mean we have to act and treat others like animals. Even assuming the "stars" of such films choose to participate, it is the market place that decides it is an acceptable behavior / profession, and in my opinion it shouldn't be.
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husker
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:19 pm
There was a special on 20/20 sometime ago and it pretty much show the dark side of the subject. Once the gal had been gangbanged by about 12 guys in a jail - she was pretty much ok with everything else that happened later on.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:19 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
piffka wrote:
But who is to say how many porn "artists" don't feel forced or coerced?


Dunno, but I think that's wholly irrelevent in a comparison to people who actually are physically forced and coerced, not just "feeling" that way while being paid for it and while being able to take breaks and demand that they not be murdered.

Remember, some of the abuses in the prisons are not just coerced but physical and forcible penetration.

Comparing it to "feelings" of being coerced on the paret of people who are paid for their time is, IMO, to seriously cheapen the notion of forcible rape.

You are comparing people who get paid and who can decline at any time to people enduring forced treatment for days that ended up in death and rape.

I think that if you think about it you'd judge the comparison as absurd.


Absurd? I think it is a very apt comparison... it shows that this culture admires overt sexuality and assumes that it is OK in many forms. And I'm sure that you know that there is both legalized pornography and a large black market which does include coersion, forced penetration and worse. It is all part and parcel with the appetites of an overly sexed-up society.

I am not a fan of porn.... I think it is degrading to the people in the films and to those who watch them. When people in our culture see pornography as harmless, they are deluding themselves. I think this is one point where most any Muslim and I would be in total agreement.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:22 pm
David Henry wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:

I do not consider myself to be a moral relativist

Interesting as you don't seem to against certain behaviours that I consider are obviously weird and would upset most people's grandmothers, lol.

Perhaps that's because, while we both agree that there are moral absolutes, we disagree on what constitutes those absolutes.

David Henry wrote:
Oral sex is ok as I have no valid reason to reject it, OTOH swirling, gargling, swallowing semen is not ok{but not outrageously bad, not as bad as other activites} as what would be the valid reason based justification for it?

Your moral absolutes, for instance, seem to be fundamentally premised on your subjective feelings of repulsion. In other words, if something is high on your "ick factor" (e.g. anal-oral contact), then it's immoral. Your purely personal levels of disgust, however, provide no compelling moral criteria for me.

David Henry wrote:
Society hasn't established in depth moral codes IMO, yet there is pressure to conform to societies wishes, those wishes usually being delivered by the elite academics/business people who are often moral relativists and wouldn't bother looking for an objective criteria as that would defy their mindset.

If society's "wishes" are not moral in nature, then why bother mentioning them here?

David Henry wrote:
I'm explicity suggesting that abberant psychology is what drives some pornographic/sexual behaviours.

Quite true. I'd add that psychological disorders drive many different behaviors, most of which are not sexual at all.

David Henry wrote:
Quote:
Whatever floats your boat.

But what does this mean?...why aren't you also saying that A2M is an obvious act of debauchery?

I don't know. How do you define "debauchery?"

David Henry wrote:
Yes, but this is my point....how do we define behaviours, we must "rely" on our knowledge of biological functions, and in conjunction with reason determine acceptable limits to behaviours.

If your biological criterion is not based on "reason," on what is it based?

David Henry wrote:
There's nothing reasonable about A2M, but there's nothing unreasonable about oral sex....if there is something reasonable about A2M, what is it??

Apart from the above-mentioned "ick factor," what is the rational distinction between oral-anal contact and oral-genital contact?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:30 pm
Piffka wrote:
But who is to say how many porn "artists" don't feel forced or coerced?

The porn artists themselves.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:40 pm
Piffka wrote:

Absurd? I think it is a very apt comparison... it shows that this culture admires overt sexuality and assumes that it is OK in many forms.


Yes, consensual sexuality is often acceptable, thankfully forced sexual acts are not. Comparing them in scope (which it is to compare the level of objection) is absurd and also thankfully rejected by society so that we are able to delineate between such crimes and mere sensibilities that you'd like to project onto others.

Quote:
And I'm sure that you know that there is both legalized pornography and a large black market which does include coersion, forced penetration and worse. It is all part and parcel with the appetites of an overly sexed-up society.


Therein the problem is not the porn, but the rape. But you digress, you'd initially just wanted to compare the voluntary "degradation" of willing women as you perceive it to wartime rape and torture of prisoners.

Quote:
I am not a fan of porn.... I think it is degrading to the people in the films and to those who watch them.


That much is evident, but projecting your feeling onto the willing participants is no sound way to compare it to war crimes.

Quote:
When people in our culture see pornography as harmless, they are deluding themselves.


Sez you. I think the delusion rests with those who try to equate their own revulsion with a moral absolute and who try to project their feelings onto all of society.

Quote:
I think this is one point where most any Muslim and I would be in total agreement.


I agree, meaning only that there are others who subscribe to absurdity.

Comparing willing pornography to rape, murder and torture is absurd. And the extremities of feminism that lead people to make such comparisons undermine the rapidly declining valid points that women's lib as a movement has.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 01:58 pm
I never see objections to the objectification and commodification of males in pornography. Those guys are just as exhibitionistic as the women. The only problem I have with pornography is that the consumer is blatantly voyeuristic, living his/her lives vicariosly. But for men and women who do not have sexual access to the real thing, I guess it serves a legitimate function. Frankly, it is harder for me to watch young actors kissing (or should I say "eating at") each other on T.V.. I feel like a voyeur. THAT looks more personal and private to me than does the exhibitionistic sex of porno actors on screen. On the whole, after reading the article I agree mainly with the liberal feminist perspective.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:10 pm
Truly amazed, Craven, that you are unwilling to see that there is a spectrum of sexuality that includes both pornography and the kinds of sexual degradation that apparently went on in Iraq. There is an obvious correlation to me. For one, I can't believe you have never heard of snuff films. Apparently you believe you are limiting your enjoyment to films that "you know" are cleanly made. What happens if you later find out that one wasn't made with willing actors? As soon as someone takes money, then the sky is the limit? So when the Iraqis get paid off, as they undoubtedly will, then they shouldn't care about their treatment?

My attitude does not come from any moral absolute, nor is it based on what you refer to as extremist feminism. It is based on my preferences for entertainment. It is a simple simple enough concept -- I am not entertained by watching someone else having sex.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:15 pm
Piffka wrote:
For one, I can't believe you have never heard of snuff films.


I have, this is a common apochryphal urban ledgend that you seem to have eaten up.

Quote:
Apparently you believe you are limiting your enjoyment to films that "you know" are cleanly made.


I said nothing of enjoying films, I said that your comparison was absurd and that you repeatedly try to create red-herrings like speculating as to my preference is telling.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:18 pm
piffka,

For your edification: http://www.snopes2.com/horrors/madmen/snuff.htm

Not one real snuff film has ever been found and there is a standing offer for a million dollars to find one.
0 Replies
 
husker
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:23 pm
Love on a Porn Set

Quote:


Quote:
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:24 pm
piffka,

Here are more resources to help make informed arguments in the future about snuff films:

The Snuff Film - The Making of an Urban Legend

Is there such a thing as a snuff film?
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:26 pm
I assumed that you must enjoy these films. You don't? <shrug> Oh good, then we agree on something.

I see an odd disconnect between those who see porn as a good thing and those who are shocked at the treatment of prisoners in Iraq. I think both are a symptom of a sick society.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:29 pm
I think consensual sex on camera (porn) is a great thing. I think it's a benefit to society and I am happy that younger generations have less irrantional hangups about sex.

I think comparison of consensual sex with to torture is an absurd insult to those who are tortured.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Mon 10 May, 2004 02:46 pm
Yeah, piffka. I'm with you. Sex ain't a spectator sport. And I certainly understand how you can draw a parallel between porn stars and the Iraqi thing.

As far as the debasement of "the body electric" is concerned, society dictates roles, and to step out of those roles, requires more than an animal urge.

Nah, Craven. I don't believe there is any such thing as snuff films.

That bunny is a signifier, ain't she.
0 Replies
 
 

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