31
   

When do we cease to exist?

 
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 05:22 am
Quote:
Neologist said:@RF- Jesus existed before Adam and Eve.
If you deny Adam and Eve's existence, then you deny God's word. Surely Jesus believed in the Genesis account.
You refuse to answer my question about Adam and Eve's current condition because to do so would force you to admit we are mortal

You're simply trying to promote your Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs mate, and as I've said before, I don't give a rat's ass about them..Smile
Yes Jesus existed before Adam and Eve, but not in flesh-and-blood form.
Everybody knows the Adam/Eve account is heavy with allegory, metaphor and symbology, for example snakes don't talk, that was just a symbol for satanic persuasion, which is why Jesus used the account as a warning.
Adam/Eve might or might not have existed as flesh and blood humans or early cave dwellers, nobody is sure. Likewise nobody is sure where they are now (if they existed) but no doubt the JW's think they can tell us..Wink

Quote:
Romeo fan mail from Lillian: - "Mick please come back..it's nice having you on the board"
Neologist said: Have you tried going back, Romeo. Or are you banned?

The only boards I've been banned from were assorted crackpot Religious fundy boards who couldn't take the terrific hammering I was giving them- "They prefer teachers who only tell them what they want to hear" (2 Tim 4:2-4)
Right Rock?

"C'mon, it's true, but that don't bother me, I just wanna prove somethin', I ain't no bum, it don't matter if I lose, don't matter if Romeo opens my head.
The only thing I wanna do is go the distance, that's all. Nobody's ever gone fifteen rounds with Romeo.
If I go them fifteen rounds, an' that bell rings an' I'm still standin', I'm gonna know then I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/rocky1.png
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 02:24 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
So, in essence, you don't believe portions of the Bible account which conflict with your exegesis. That would put you at odds with Luke who traced Jesus' ancestry all the way back to Adam. We believe you when you say you don't dance to any body's tune.

But hey. Sashay, Romeo. Sashay.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Feb, 2014 06:25 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
"Everybody knows"
"nobody is sure"

Note Romeo uses Argumentum ad populum here, it is a common tact when one wishes to gain undue authority over his opponent by making a statement without offering evidence. If we remove the "Romeo" presentation, here are the statements from the post.

Romeo wrote:
the Adam/Eve account is heavy with allegory, metaphor and symbology, the snake was a symbol for satanic persuasion, which is why Jesus used the account as a warning.

Romeo wrote:
Adam/Eve might or might not have existed as flesh and blood humans or early cave dwellers, I am not sure. I am not sure where they are now or if they existed


Genesis for those that believe the bible was inspired of God, was actually written as a book of the history of man, beginning with the creation account and continuing through to the Exodus of the Hebrews. It chronicles mans lineage and recorded Adam and Eve beyond the garden of Eden.

To suggest that the account of the garden of Eden was allegory, or that Adam and Eve were not flesh and blood would then indicate that the Lineage of Genesis was inaccurate, as well as the gospel of Luke which records Adams Lineage through to Jesus. This would undermine any further claim to the authority of the bible, including the accounts of Jesus.

A further point to take note of is that to suggest that Adam and Eve have immortal souls is to suggest that the Devil was not lying, and that they positively did not die, rather they became just like God, a spirit being.

To suggest that Romeo could argue a decent point for "15 rounds" without contradicting his self or scripture is to suggest that God is still performing miracles to this day.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2014 07:46 am
Quote:
Neologist said:@RF-So, in essence, you don't believe portions of the Bible account which conflict with your exegesis. That would put you at odds with Luke who traced Jesus' ancestry all the way back to Adam.

Why are you Jehovah's Witnesses so obsessed with Adam and Eve mate?
Of COURSE Jesus's ancestry can be traced back to the first cave people (symbolised by Adam/Eve) just as mine and yours can, and everybody else's on the planet..Smile
Even Paul told Timothy not to waste time getting bogged in tracing family ancestry-
"..stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work.." (1 Tim 1:3/4)

Quote:
Smiley alleged that Romeo said: Adam/Eve might or might not have existed as flesh and blood humans or early cave dwellers, I am not sure. I am not sure where they are now or if they existed

Nope, I never said that at all!
But I'll put it down to a genuine mistake on your part and won't accuse you of false witness, but don't make a habit of putting words into my mouth that i never said, or it's the naughty step for you!
Incidentally, to you and anybody else who thinks the Eden story is to be taken absolutely literally, surely you don't think a snake actually spoke?..Wink
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2014 08:36 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo wrote:
surely you don't think a snake actually spoke?..


Or indeed a Donkey? (Numbers 22)
There are quite a few Miracles in the bible that involve miracles that relied on supernatural control or direction of animals,
Snakes (Exodus 7)
Frogs, gnats, Locusts, Gadflies (Exodus 8-9)
Ravens (1 Kings 17)
Lions (1 Kings 13) (Daniel 6)
Bears (2 Kings 2)
A Whale (Jonah 2)
Fish (Matthew 17) (Luke 5) (John 21)
Pigs (Mark 5)
If you were to ask my younger brother when he was a tot, Jesus also cured the Leopards
We also must include the collection of the animals to the ark.

Is a talking snake beyond all of these? Must these also be considered allegory and symbolic?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2014 11:43 am
Quote:
Smiley said: Or indeed a Donkey? (Numbers 22)
There are quite a few Miracles in the bible that involve miracles that relied on supernatural control or direction of animals,
Snakes (Exodus 7)
Frogs, gnats, Locusts, Gadflies (Exodus 8-9)
Ravens (1 Kings 17)
Lions (1 Kings 13) (Daniel 6)
Bears (2 Kings 2)
A Whale (Jonah 2)
Fish (Matthew 17) (Luke 5) (John 21)
Pigs (Mark 5)
If you were to ask my younger brother when he was a tot, Jesus also cured the Leopards
We also must include the collection of the animals to the ark.
Is a talking snake beyond all of these? Must these also be considered allegory and symbolic?

Only two creatures actually spoke in the Bible, namely the Eden snake and Balaam's donkey, but we know the stories are only abstract and symbolic because neither Eve nor Balaam thought it was strange for a creature to talk. Real humans would definitely have found it strange. Balaam for example reportedly held a conversation with the donkey as if it was perfectly normal!
An angel was nearby, so we can assume he cast a "dream" illusion over the incident..Wink
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2014 02:08 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Quote:
Smiley alleged that Romeo said: Adam/Eve might or might not have existed as flesh and blood humans or early cave dwellers, I am not sure. I am not sure where they are now or if they existed
Nope, I never said that at all!
But I'll put it down to a genuine mistake on your part and won't accuse you of false witness, but don't make a habit of putting words into my mouth that i never said, or it's the naughty step for you!
Incidentally, to you and anybody else who thinks the Eden story is to be taken absolutely literally, surely you don't think a snake actually spoke?.
These are your actual words from a post further up this page:
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Everybody knows the Adam/Eve account is heavy with allegory, metaphor and symbology, for example snakes don't talk, that was just a symbol for satanic persuasion, which is why Jesus used the account as a warning.
Adam/Eve might or might not have existed as flesh and blood humans or early cave dwellers, nobody is sure. Likewise nobody is sure where they are now (if they existed) but no doubt the JW's think they can tell us..Wink
If nobody knows, surely neither do you, right?
So give Smiley the credit he deserves for exposing your lie.

If you discredit the reality of the Genesis account, then what of the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 which prefigures the Christ?
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Feb, 2014 02:17 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
Only two creatures actually spoke in the Bible, namely the Eden snake and Balaam's donkey, but we know the stories are only abstract and symbolic because neither Eve nor Balaam thought it was strange for a creature to talk. Real humans would definitely have found it strange. Balaam for example reportedly held a conversation with the donkey as if it was perfectly normal!


fact - Neither Eve nor Balaams initial thoughts were recorded in the scriptural account.
Assumption - neither Eve nor Balaam thought it was strange for a creature to talk

While it records their verbal response, it did not record the expression on their face or the tone of their voice, or indeed if there were any pauses before the response, surprise is not always verbal or indeed necessary to the tale, if you demand surprise to be recorded in the account for you to believe a miracle was not allegory, the bible is full of them.
Are we to believe that the 5000 who were fed by Jesus were ungrateful because it did not record them expressing their thanks?

Now when an event is recorded as a perception, using expressions such as he saw, or he heard, these could be debated as allegory, Moses did not record Balaam as "hearing" the donkey speak, rather he wrote that God "opened the donkeys mouth." It was not recorded as a perception but as an event. Balaam was however recorded as having a dream the night prior in which God told him not to go. Why would the writer record one as a dream and the other as a literal event if both were dream like states?

As for Eve, like Balaam she would have spoken to spirit creatures prior to the snake. Why should she question it's ability? Adam was the one who had observed and named all of the creatures, so he might have been less easily fooled. Why do you suppose the serpent approached Eve and not Adam? With the serpent being the most "cautious" of all the animals it is plausible that Eve would not have encountered it to the point that she would know any different. She may have been surprised, although my personal thoughts are that under the conditions of Eden she would be more curious than surprised, but clearly it was not pertinent enough to the account for Moses to record it.

Regardless, if you can assume a single portion of scripture to be allegory to conform to your understanding, could it be said that one could reinterpret most of the bible as allegory?

Quote:
An angel was nearby, so we can assume he cast a "dream" illusion over the incident.

And because I just can't help it, you know what it means to assume don't you...
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 07:09 pm
@Smileyrius,
If we're talking about animals speaking and/or anthropomorphism than Aesop's fables wins hands down.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 07:45 pm
@Germlat,
Yeah. But the Bible was not written as a Disney production.
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 07:58 pm
@neologist,
Neither were Aesop's fables. They were intended as moral tales.
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 06:56 am
@neologist,
Aesop-- Ancient Greek fabulist(620-564 BCE). Definitely not employed by Disney.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:27 am
Quote:
Romeo said: nobody is sure where they [Adam/Eve] are now (if they existed) but no doubt the JW's think they can tell us.
Neologist replied: If nobody knows, surely neither do you, right?
So give Smiley the credit he deserves for exposing your lie.

Ha ha so now I'm a liar according to you mate!
I said nobody knows where Adam/Eve are now, so how can that be a lie?
Do you want me to pretend that I know? Sorry, but we holy men don't do "pretend", unlike you Jehovah's Witnesses who like to think they know everything and that everybody else is misguided or liars..
"If you try to study the Bible without our help, you go into darkness" (JW Watchtower 15 Sep 1910, page 298 )

Be careful or people will think you and your JW chums are a little bit paranoid like the other oddball cults out there..Wink

WIKI- "Paranoid personality disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis characterized by paranoia characterized by a pervasive and long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Romeo Fabulini on cultbuster patrol
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/POS-swagger2_zps8e311a2c.jpg~original
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:53 am
Quote:
Smiley said (re the talking snake and donkey): if you can assume a single portion of scripture to be allegory to conform to your understanding, could it be said that one could reinterpret most of the bible as allegory?

We can use our God-given commonsense at all times mate. If you want to think animals literally spoke, go ahead, but my commonsense tells me the incidents were simply symbology..Smile
Your profile says- "I am neither a scholar, nor an intellectual, I have no qualifications nor recognitions. I have been known to be wrong before, but am happy to continue to learn by each and every mistake"

Good for you mate, nobody needs to be an egghead with loads of diplomas to understand the Bible-
"When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus" (Acts 4:13)
Jesus said:- "I thank you Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, and for revealing them to little children"(Matt 11:25-27)
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)


In fact at one point Jesus had to warn the snooty scholars to get their noses out of their heavyweight books-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)

And Paul also warned people - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

The moral? - don't get obsessed and bogged down with trivial details or weave verses together into tangled balls of string. Leave that behaviour to the cultists..Wink
Right Oddball?

"Er...yeah, right on baby!"
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/vibes.jpg~original
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 04:03 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
I said nobody knows where Adam/Eve are now, so how can that be a lie?
But the Bible does answer that, Romeo. So how can you be so obtuse?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 04:26 pm
Quote:
Romeo said: nobody knows where Adam/Eve are now, so how can that be a lie?
Neologist said: But the Bible does answer that. So how can you be so obtuse?

Well mainstream Christianity doesn't claim to know where they are because there are assorted differing verses to choose from, but no doubt you JW's think you know what the rest of us poor dumb shmucks don't..Smile
It's not important for anybody to guess where Adam/Eve are anyway, what's the point?
anonymously99stwin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 10:52 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
It offends me/hurts me when you flirt with other men.
0 Replies
 
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Feb, 2014 11:12 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
You build your arguments on faith in words of a book. I build mine on life. Aren't we both right?
0 Replies
 
kiuku
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2014 09:59 am
@Germlat,
there is some proof which states there is really no such thing. You go to sleep, and that's it. But you can wake up, even then, in the afterlife or here. There is two types of souls, too.

This body is a body of light, a 'ka', as is the one in heaven which is the same exact one as this. Then there is a 'soul' as I am told. The parts of the body which are not light belong to the soul, existing foremost in the soul, which is in the underworld.

ka's are capable of traversing the underworld often for the sake of their soul, wretched soul, usually.

Existing freely in Heaven, a Heavenly KA is free from most of the burdens of its underworld soul. According to myth, but oh well, most heavenly souls are the pity of demons of the underworld who see them as merely entertaining fantasy, a soul to which it must one day return and none of them, except the queen of heaven was ever "allowed" the return of her soul which she had given up freely [Inanna.]

Life it seems can sleep. but there is a proof, a formal proof that it never was is or will be.

KA's are capable of anything.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2014 10:24 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
nobody knows where Adam/Eve are now, so how can that be a lie?
I wrote:
But the Bible does answer that. So how can you be so obtuse?
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Well mainstream Christianity doesn't claim to know where they are because there are assorted differing verses to choose from, but no doubt you JW's think you know what the rest of us poor dumb shmucks don't..Smile
It's not important for anybody to guess where Adam/Eve are anyway, what's the point?
They are dead, of course.
0 Replies
 
 

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