The Trinity (a discussion)

@kjw47,

Solomon is using flowery language in Proverbs 8 to describe wisdom. Please remember that all God had to do is speak to create the universe. As for Colossians 1:15, please read it in the Greek language. And read it in context. You will find that it is explaining an important aspect of what Jesus did in dying for our sins.

1 Reply

@kjw47,

You may want to read the book "Kingdom of the Cults" by Dr. Walter Martin. Now, it is true that there has been an evolution of doctrine by Jehovah Witnesses over the years, it should benefit you to read it.

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@kjw47,

Quote:

From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion serve the Abrahamic God.

The Abrahamic God, "The Son of Man" who descended from heaven and filled his servant Jesus with his spirit.

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@NealNealNeal,

NealNealNeal wrote:

Solomon is using flowery language in Proverbs 8 to describe wisdom. Please remember that all God had to do is speak to create the universe. As for Colossians 1:15, please read it in the Greek language. And read it in context. You will find that it is explaining an important aspect of what Jesus did in dying for our sins.

Why have you people invented a god that needs someone to die for peoples "sins?"

A "sin" is just something that offends that god. That is all a "sin" is. So why invent a god who requires that someone die for having offended it?

It makes no sense.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Why have you people invented a god that needs someone to die for peoples "sins?"

But you don't 'BELIEVE' that their god Doesn't exist do you? you are simply making another one of your wild guesses that he might not exist.

Neither do you believe nor disbelieve that sin offends their god, you're just bumbling around in the darkness of your own ignorance, tripping over all your disbeliefs.

To know is to believe, to not believe anything, is to not know anything, who would bother listening to one who admits that they are a total ignoramus?

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

The Anointed wrote:

Quote:
Why have you people invented a god that needs someone to die for peoples "sins?"

But you don't 'BELIEVE' that their god Doesn't exist do you? you are simply making another one of your wild guesses that he might not exist.

Neither do you believe nor disbelieve that sin offends their god, you're just bumbling around in the darkness of your own ignorance, tripping over all your disbeliefs.

To know is to believe, to not believe anything, is to not know anything, who would bother listening to one who admits that they are a total ignoramus?

The wording was a success. You went ape.

Why does your god (which you blindly guess exists) require that someone die for your "sins?"

A "sin" is simply something a human does that offends a god...in this case, YOUR god...the one you blindly guess exists.

So why do you blindly guess a god exists that requires people to die for offending it?

Sounds like a monster to me...and to any thinking person.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Why does your god (which you blindly guess exists) require that someone die for your "sins?"

Do you believe that my God doesn't exist, or do you just blindly guess that He doesn't? Are you an atheist and refuse to accept that any person's God exists? Or do you accept that a God could exist? If you do accept that a God could exist, and we have your own word that you are an agnostic and do accept that a God could exist, but because of your ignorance, you think that there is no way to prove if He does exist, and you don't know whose God could exist or couldn't exist, and because you do not know if someone's God does not exist, how can you say that they are blindly guessing that He does exist when you don't know either way?

When are you going to admit that you are just a lying atheist who does not believe that any God exists?

Gord, you're a dumb kid.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

The Anointed wrote:

Quote:
Why does your god (which you blindly guess exists) require that someone die for your "sins?"

Quote:
Do you believe that my God doesn't exist, or do you just blindly guess that He doesn't?

Neither. I have no idea if the god you blindly guess exists or not.

Quote:

Are you an atheist and refuse to accept that any person's God exists?

I am not an atheist.

Quote:

Or do you accept that a God could exist? If you do accept that a God could exist, and we have your own word that you are an agnostic and do accept that a God could exist, but because of your ignorance, you think that there is no way to prove if He does exist, and you don't know whose God could exist or couldn't exist, and because you do not know if someone's God does not exist, how can you say that they are blindly guessing that He does exist when you don't know either way?

That was a horrible sentence, TA. Calm down when you write.

My position regarding whether gods exists or not is:

I do not know if any GOD (or gods) exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect that gods cannot exist…that the existence of a GOD or gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that at least one GOD must exist...that the existence of at least one GOD is needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction on whether any gods exist or not...so I don't.

(When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.)

Quote:

When are you going to admit that you are just a lying atheist who does not believe that any God exists?

On many occasions I have acknowledged that I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY GOD EXISTS.

I also have, on many occasions, acknowledged that I ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE NO GODS EXIST.

Some people do "believe" a GOD exists. I am not one of those people I do not "believe" that a GOD exists. Some people "believe" that no gods exist. I am not one of those people either. I do not "believe" that no gods exist.

Here is a thread where I discuss that from 10 years ago.

https://able2know.org/topic/190405-1

Quote:

Gord, you're a dumb kid.

I am 86 years old...and I am far from dumb or stupid.

And for the record, I have many more arguments with the atheists here in A2K...than with people like you.

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I would suggest that it is not about whether a God exists or doesn’t exist and has never been about that.

I would suggest that if you hold that view then you have completely missed the point.

After all even a devil would believe in a God.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

The bible doesnt teach what you say. Jesus is the son of man. The Abrahamic Gods name is YHWH(Jehovah)

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

NealNealNeal wrote:

Solomon is using flowery language in Proverbs 8 to describe wisdom. Please remember that all God had to do is speak to create the universe. As for Colossians 1:15, please read it in the Greek language. And read it in context. You will find that it is explaining an important aspect of what Jesus did in dying for our sins.

Why have you people invented a god that needs someone to die for peoples "sins?"

A "sin" is just something that offends that god. That is all a "sin" is. So why
invent a god who requires that someone die for having offended it?

It makes no sense.

The ultimate question is:
Did man create God because he needed a god OR
Did God create man with a need for Him.

Those who believe #1 is correct are Secular Humanists. The question of ORIGIN is answered quite vaguely. However, a series of hypothesis is developed to answer questions about the physical world. The Spiritual World is completely ignored.
Secular Humanists believe that man created various gods so that they could feel better about themselves. For example food needs can be met by the gods as well as sexual and emotional needs.
You are asking a Spiritual question from a secular humanist point of view. Thus, it makes no sense to you.
The brief answer is that God made man so that He could have a personal relationship with each individual person. However, Original Sin destroyed this personal relationship. Jesus died for our sins so that a personal relationship could be restored between God and each individual person.

1 Reply

@Jasper10,

Jasper10 wrote:

I would suggest that it is not about whether a God exists or doesn’t exist and has never been about that.

I would suggest that if you hold that view then you have completely missed the point.

After all even a devil would believe in a God.

Jasper-----The devil and demons are spiritual beings who have great influence in deceiving people. Of course they know that God exists. Their man purpose is to keep people from having a personal relationship with God. They love to create confusion.

1 Reply

@NealNealNeal,

I am merely making the point that a BELIEF in a God may not be enough.

I would suggest that there is something else, a vital point,we are missing.

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@Jasper10,

Jasper10 wrote:

I am merely making the point that a BELIEF in a God may not be enough.

I would suggest that there is something else, a vital point,we are missing.

What is that point?

1 Reply

@NealNealNeal,

NealNealNeal wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

NealNealNeal wrote:

Solomon is using flowery language in Proverbs 8 to describe wisdom. Please remember that all God had to do is speak to create the universe. As for Colossians 1:15, please read it in the Greek language. And read it in context. You will find that it is explaining an important aspect of what Jesus did in dying for our sins.

Why have you people invented a god that needs someone to die for peoples "sins?"

A "sin" is just something that offends that god. That is all a "sin" is. So why
invent a god who requires that someone die for having offended it?

It makes no sense.

The ultimate question is:
Did man create God because he needed a god OR
Did God create man with a need for Him.

Those who believe #1 is correct are Secular Humanists. The question of ORIGIN is answered quite vaguely. However, a series of hypothesis is developed to answer questions about the physical world. The Spiritual World is completely ignored.
Secular Humanists believe that man created various gods so that they could feel better about themselves. For example food needs can be met by the gods as well as sexual and emotional needs.
You are asking a Spiritual question from a secular humanist point of view. Thus, it makes no sense to you.
The brief answer is that God made man so that He could have a personal relationship with each individual person. However, Original Sin destroyed this personal relationship. Jesus died for our sins so that a personal relationship could be restored between God and each individual person.

Since you cannot know if there is a god...you therefore also cannot know what the god does any of the things you suppose it does.

There is no need for a personal relationship...except in the minds of people who are convinced their guesses about the existence of a god...is correct.

But once again you have Jesus dying for our sins.

I am just wondering why you have chosen to guess that there is a god that would demand someone die for "sins."

A "sin" is an affront to the god. If the god has decided to "forgive" the affront...why not just forgive the thing?

Why, oh, why...does the god indicate that it will forgive the affronts, but only if the people first torture and kill its son?

Don't you think that torturing and killing its son...is a rather serious affront????

1 Reply

@NealNealNeal,

The point is that whilst belief is important,I would suggest that it is not the ANSWER we are looking for as many may think.Did the Jesus of the bible claim he was God?

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@Frank Apisa,

I say that the first line of your post is incorrect.
Since you do not believe this, it is not possible to answer your questions.
If there is no God, the rest of the discussion is moot. It is like trying to teach calculus to one who denied that arithmetic is correct.

1 Reply

@Jasper10,

Yes. Jesus claimed to be God. The Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God several times.

1 Reply

@NealNealNeal,

Actually Jesus never claimed to be God. The Israelite spiritual teachers hated Jesus, they never said a truth about him. They said he received his power from demons= a lie, They said it was impossible for Jesus and his apostles to be spiritual teachers, because they did not attend their schools of men= another lie, And they said he was claiming to be God= another lie. A heart of hatred does not speak truth.

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@NealNealNeal,

NealNealNeal wrote:

I say that the first line of your post is incorrect.

I say you are wrong. My first line is correct. You do not KNOW there is a god...you simply "believe" (blindly guess) that to be true.

Quote:

Since you do not believe this, it is not possible to answer your questions.

What on Earth does my "not believing" have to do with you answering a question about what you "believe?"

Quote:

If there is no God, the rest of the discussion is moot.

But we do not KNOW that there is no GOD (are no gods)...do we!

There may be a GOD...there may be many gods...there may be no gods.

You just are unwilling to answer the question...and are searching for reason to justify your unwillingness.

No need to do that. You certainly have a right to simply refuse to answer the question.

Quote:

It is like trying to teach calculus to one who denied that arithmetic is correct.

Oh, stop it. Either answer the question...or tell me that you are unwilling to answer it. Don't try analogies that are far-fetched and absurd.

2 Replies

The Trinity (a discussion)

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