The Trinity (a discussion)

@neologist,

It doesn't, it is based upon faith to accent too. Jesus said that he would build his rock on Peter. And their are Apostolic successions that do exist. Otherwise none is an actual disciple. I do believe that their is succession in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, but it is not perfected without the sacraments. The Bible also says to shut the door behind you and reveal in secrecy, but it also says to tell one another, which means it isn't either or. But people should be doing both.

The Bible never explains either, but Apostolically, there is a three legged stool known as sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the majesterium.

It is better to go that way, then to go as one of the 144,000. Neo, if you did, another would be saved apart of the 144,000

To be the least of the Apostles, is greater than the greatest of Prophets

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@xXxSERVANTxXx,

xXxSERVANTxXx wrote:

It doesn't, it is based upon faith to accent too.

I'd like to respond to your entire post. But first: what does this mean?

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@neologist,

It means that everything within the three are not scriptural, and it takes a higher conscience of faith to actually accept that they are true. Scripturally, I posted two quick summerizations in the Bible that depict that apostollically the Holy Spirit has always worked within the Pope. Even the ones who have stepped down. There always must be one who is in direct line to lead all Christian churches. Even Eastern Orthodox. If not, you have more choas then any other faith or rejection. Since our faith is based on Christ. And Apostolic succession as disciples.

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@xXxSERVANTxXx,

xXxSERVANTxXx wrote:

. . . the Holy Spirit has always worked within the Pope.

Even those popes who presided over the crusades? the inquisition? How about the pope who turned his back on the holocaust victims in WWII?

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@neologist,

There are Popes who have sinned for sure, we all do. That is precisely why the sacraments are not a bad thing. And reperations are good, both ways. The Pope is said to be infallible because of his status, everyone sins. Those that die and have mortally wounded God need a place where they can learn the right ways of doing things. But are also protected by God and those in Heaven. And a place to suffer to detach from Earthly desires is not bad. It is a way to rid the soul of the garbage we hold on too. In perfecting our grace with God before we are ready to accend toward Heaven and see God, or be in his truly, perfected, loving compassion forever. That is a beautiful thing. And it offers more graces for those who need to go. It isn't bad that this realm exists. And some just are not ready to see God once they die.

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Quote:

xServantx said: the Holy Spirit has always worked within the Pope.

Nowhere does the Bible say to pray to Mary and to human "saints", so catholicism will always be a satan-tainted religion as long as they continue firing blanks like that.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

And you are correct. No one should. Now, if people pray for themselves and others. Then it only makes sense to pray with another to God. Since God said if two or more pray. But sometimes we recieve answers different than we ask. It is a big misconception that people are praying too and not with.

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@xXxSERVANTxXx,

Jesus is the only approved mediator between man and God. - 1 Timothy 2:5

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@Smileyrius,

Just noticed this thread, to be honest it doesn't interest me that much. On BBC Radio 4 there is a programme called In Our Times. Host Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss an issue. It's very academic, and always quite interesting even if it's something I'm not that concerned about. This week they discussed The Trinity. Here's a link. I only hope it plays where you are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03xgl3m

Quote:

Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss the Trinity. The idea that God is a single entity, but one known in three distinct forms - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - has been a central belief for most Christians since the earliest years of the religion. The doctrine was often controversial in the early years of the Church, until clarified by the Council of Nicaea in the late 4th century. Later thinkers including St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas recognised that this religious mystery posed profound theological questions, such as whether the three persons of the Trinity always acted together, and whether they were of equal status. The Trinity's influence on Christian thought and practice is considerable, although it is interpreted in different ways by different Christian traditions.

With:

Janet Soskice
Professor of Philosophical Theology at the University of Cambridge and a Fellow of Jesus College

Martin Palmer
Director of the International Consultancy on Religion, Education, and Culture

The Reverend Graham Ward
Regius Professor of Divinity at the University of Oxford and a Canon of Christ Church.

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@neologist,

I agree with you Neo. However, people praying together is better then on ones own. If two or more pray it shall be done. And a chord of three is not easily broken. I think the point is that Jesus is the only one who grants. But it is not a bad idea to help and encourage each other. You are correct that no one is truly doing the action itself but Christ. And he is the only one who truly knows our heart, mind, body and soul itself. When people pray together they strengthen our collective faith. As individuals, and as one body of Christ.

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@izzythepush,

The Filioque controversy.

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Quote:

xxSERVANTxx said: people praying together is better then on ones own..

Yes that's fine if everybody feels strengthened by each others company-
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17)

But it's also fine to go it alone if you want-
Jesus said- "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you" (Matt 6:6)

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Why I do not believe in the trinity

“It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.

because the verse shows that Christ is at the right hand of God. It doesn't say at the right hand of God the Father, one person of a trinity.

“My father is greater than all,” John 10:29.

because here Jesus said that his father is greater than all, and said nothing about himself being included with the greatest.

“My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

And then later he also said the Father is greater than himself in the above verse.

“Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17.

And also he here speaks of God as his God, so I see no reason to think that he is including himself in this God

...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,” 1 Cor. 8:5, 6.

And here it is very plain that the Father is God, that God is the Father, and is but one God.

I see no reason to not believe these obvious verses.

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@edgarblythe,

But could he make a stone that he couldn't lift, for example?
Phil (www.philosophersblogofideas.blog.com

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@neologist,

Neologist, are you, out of interest, convinced by the doctrine of arianism (NOT the racial theory!)? It states that although Jesus is a part of God, Jesus as that part is lesser than the part of the Father. So the trinity is not divided into equal thirds.
Or am I just getting into quibbles? I think its an interesting idea - not sure how valid it is though
Phil (www.philosophersblogofideas.blog.com)

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Quote:

PhilO asked: But could he [God] make a stone that he couldn't lift, for example?

Somebody once asked Isaac Asimov- "What would happen if an irresistible force met an immovable object?" to which Asimov replied-
"That's an illogical question because an irresistible force and an immoveable object cannot be in the same universe, therefore the question requires no answer".
Same with the God "stone" question.. Smile

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@PhilipOSopher,

I don't know how familiar you are with scripture; but I am certain the Bible identifies Jesus as a distinct individual, although in the position of having been the first creation of his father. He was given power by God to complete his father's creation. If you peruse Proverbs, Chapter 8, you will find some interesting insights into his pre human existence.

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@Smileyrius,

If one believes that Jesus is not a member of the trinity, why believe that Jesus had an existence before being born as a baby? I think that for there to be support for the view that God is a Trinity, that it was necessary for Jesus to have existed from eternity and that is the reason for the Christian belief that Jesus pre-existed. One can't argue for a trinity if Jesus came into existence at his birth as a baby.

There is a verse that says that he had to be like his brethren in every way. But was he like his brethren in every way if he had a pre-existence?

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@Enaj,

Jesus is named in Colossians 1:15 as the "firstborn of creation." This places Jesus creation before his human existence, it does not however permit eternal existence.

This also suggests that belief in Jesus prehuman existence predated the trinitarian doctrine.

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@Smileyrius,

Yeah. What you said.

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The Trinity (a discussion)

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