Destroy My Belief System, Please!

@Frank Apisa,

Hmmm.... if you reallyknow what you are talking about, which would be astonishing, would you mind telling the rest of us? Since you've done so on "several occasions" (giggles).. .

What is "ultimate reality", Frank? In what sense is it more "ultimate" than my kitchen?

Or, do you want to withdraw your question because you don't know what it means? :-)

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Hmmm.... if you reallyknow what you are talking about, which would be astonishing, would you mind telling the rest of us? Since you've done so on "several occasions" (giggles).. .

What is "ultimate reality", Frank? In what sense is it more "ultimate" than my kitchen?

Or, do you want to withdraw your question because you don't know what it means? :-)

Since the word "ultimate" is something that threatens you, Olivier, I asked you to answer my questions about REALITY without the qualifier "ultimate." We can then continue the discussion without the qualifier.

You have not done so.

When you get around to it, we'll see that the giggling more properly ought be directed toward you rather than me.

So…

Is there a GOD involved in existence?

Are no gods involved in existence?

Did "existence" come into being from nothingness...or has "existence" always been?

Is there an afterlife?

Was there a forelife?

Do you exist independent of me?

Are we all one...is non-duality the REALITY?

I know none of those answers.

Do you?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, I do think you can know "ultimate reality" by going into your kitchen. Now that you're enlightened have a nice day.

2 Replies

@JLNobody,

Frank still doesn't know reality when he walks into the kitchen; how can he believe he is right on all the arguments he participates in on a2k? Everybody else is too stupid to understand 'his' reality doesn't exist.

Funny how that works! LOL

2 Replies

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank, I do think you can know "ultimate reality" by going into your kitchen. Now that you're enlightened have a nice day.

JL...if you or anyone else wants "definitions" of "ultimate REALITY" ...you can type those words into Google and come up with 10 million hits.

I have described my meaning on many, many occasions.

Whatever IS...IS.

THAT...is, in my opinion, the ultimate REALITY. Whatever IS...is the ultimate REALITY.

I have offered to discuss this without the qualifier "ultimate"...and if you want to discuss it, I will be more than happy to accommodate you.

In the meantime, if you honestly think one can know the ultimate REALITY (or just REALITY) by going into the kitchen...do so.

Good luck with that.

I do not know what the ultimate REALITY is...and I acknowledge that I do.

Olivier seems to think that is absurd or illogical in some way. So I have asked him to answer some questions that I see go to the question of the ultimate REALITY...even if he wants to insist that we drop the modifier.

So far...I have not gotten any answers.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Frank still doesn't know reality when he walks into the kitchen; how can he believe he is right on all the arguments he participates in on a2k? Everybody else is too stupid to understand 'his' reality doesn't exist.

Funny how that works! LOL

Still not paying attention to me, ci?

What a laugh!

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

The word "ultimate" threatens YOU, in that you are embarrassed that you've used it so often yet have no clue what it means... You cannot define it, which is why you are now proposing to drop it.

I hereby accept your dropping of the word "ultimate" which you cannot define. Because I'm such a nice guy, you know...

I'll spare you also legitimate questions about what it means to be "involved in existence"... you probably don't have a clue what you mean by that anyway.

So now for my answers:

Is there a GOD involved in existence? - if there are any gods, they don't seem to be involved in our world.

Are no gods involved in existence? - as above

Did "existence" come into being from nothingness...or has "existence" always been? - IDK

Is there an afterlife? - no

Was there a forelife? - no

Do you exist independent of me? - yes, though not sure YOU exist. (Just kidding - I am certain you exist)

Are we all one...is non-duality the REALITY? - nox duality is our reality.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, in my perspective everything is ultimately what it is. In this sense I live in a world of "absolutes", but absolutism is a bad intellectual strategy.
You can also know "ultimate reality" also by not going into your kitchen.
Oh, by the way, nothing is its definition. I can learn nothing about the world by use of my dictionary, only about the language we use to talk about the world.

3 Replies

@JLNobody,

"Ultimate reality" is what is perceived by the actor. Different people react and perceive differently to the same environment.

0 Replies

@JLNobody,

Quote:

I can learn nothing about the world by use of my dictionary, only about the language we use to talk about the world.

I suppose by that you mean that we shouldn't spend too much time arguing about semantics, and I agree. But if someone asks a question about "ultimate reality" and it's obvious that the person has no clue what she is talking about, I'm gona point that out.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

The word "ultimate" threatens YOU, in that you are embarrassed that you've used it so often yet have no clue what it means... You cannot define it, which is why you are now proposing to drop it.

I understand what it means...and I have specifically told you what it means to me in the context of this discussion.

But it threatens you so...I am willing to drop it.

Quote:

I hereby accept your dropping of the word "ultimate" which you cannot define. Because I'm such a nice guy, you know...

I have no problem with you accepting to drop it...but to suggest that I cannot define it...WHEN I CLEARLY HAVE...is not acceptable.

Keep up, Olivier. Cheap tricks never work here.

I'll spare you also legitimate questions about what it means to be "involved in existence"... you probably don't have a clue what you mean by that anyway.

So now for my answers:

Is there a GOD involved in existence? - if there are any gods, they don't seem to be involved in our world.

What a cop out!

The answer to the question obviously is either "yes", "no" or "I do not know."

I do not know, Olivier...what about you?

Quote:

Are no gods involved in existence? - as above

Same thing...an evasion rather than an answer.

Give the answer.

Quote:

Did "existence" come into being from nothingness...or has "existence" always been? - IDK

Are you honestly that fearful of saying I don't know?

Quote:

Is there an afterlife? - no

You KNOW that how?

Quote:

Was there a forelife? - no

You KNOW that how?

Quote:

Do you exist independent of me? - yes, though not sure YOU exist. (Just kidding - I am certain you exist)

How do you KNOW you exist independent of me? How can you possibly be certain I exist?

Quote:

Are we all one...is non-duality the REALITY? - nox duality is our reality.

I have no idea of what nox duality is...but how do you KNOW it is the REALITY.

And you have the audacity to laugh at the fact that I acknowledge that I do not know!

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank, in my perspective everything is ultimately what it is. In this sense I live in a world of "absolutes", but absolutism is a bad intellectual strategy.
You can also know "ultimate reality" also by not going into your kitchen.
Oh, by the way, nothing is its definition. I can learn nothing about the world by use of my dictionary, only about the language we use to talk about the world.

I was asked for a definition, JL...and I gave my take on the matter.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I can learn nothing about the world by use of my dictionary, only about the language we use to talk about the world.

I suppose by that you mean that we shouldn't spend too much time arguing about semantics, and I agree. But if someone asks a question about "ultimate reality" and it's obvious that the person has no clue what she is talking about, I'm gona point that out.

I hope you do at some point. So far...all you have done is to dismiss the explanation...and pretend it wasn't given. Wink

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I think his cat* gets into his kitchen and that is soooo real!

*or cats, I forget

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I think his cat* gets into his kitchen and that is soooo real!

*or cats, I forget

Cats, Ossobuco.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I have specifically told you what it means to me in the context of this discussion

Where? Can you say it again, or did you forgot? I actually think we should keep it, if you can define it precisely.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I have specifically told you what it means to me in the context of this discussion

Where? Can you say it again, or did you forgot? I actually think we should keep it, if you can define it precisely.

Okay...I will play your game for a bit.

The ultimate REALITY...is whatever actually IS.

Whatever IS...IS...and that is the ultimate REALITY.

I like the term and use it in place of "REALITY" or "whatever IS...IS."

But..."the ultimate REALITY"..."REALITY"...and "whatever IS...IS...

...are essentially the same thing using different words.

Other than "whatever actually IS...IS" I do not know what actually IS...I do not know the REALITY of existence...I do not know the ultimate REALITY.

So...besides the tautology, "whatever IS...IS"...what do you know about the ultimate REALITY?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

The ultimate REALITY...is whatever actually IS

Ok. That would be what I would call reality, or objective reality.

Quote:

what do you know about the ultimate REALITY?

It depends what you mean by "know". If only the stuff certain at 100%, not much. Stuff exist, including my mind...

Otherwise, if one defines knowledge as inclusive of reasonable uncertainties, I know quite a lot.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The ultimate REALITY...is whatever actually IS

Ok. That would be what I would call reality, or objective reality.

Quote:
what do you know about the ultimate REALITY?

It depends what you mean by "know". If only the stuff certain at 100%, not much. Stuff exist, including my mind...

Otherwise, if one defines knowledge as inclusive of reasonable uncertainties, I know quite a lot.

Well...the devil definitely is in the details here. "Reasonable uncertainty" can mean vastly different, and irreconcilable, things to different people. "Stuff exists" can be disputed twenty ways from Sunday...as can the certainty of your "mind."

But let me just say "okay" for now.

Is there a life before or after the life you appear to be living right now?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You have failed to defined "ultimate" so far. What you have defined is your meaning of the phrase "ultimate reality": "whatever IS". Which for the rest of us is the definition of "reality". Therefore the word "ultimate" means nothing very clear to me, in that phrase as you define it... It appears to be redundant. Are you aware of that?

3 Replies

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