Destroy My Belief System, Please!

@Olivier5,

Looking in my ital dictionary, ultimo means last, which is how I have thought of the word in english too.

So, are you all arguing about last reality? Sounds piquant.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

"Reasonable uncertainty" can mean vastly different, and irreconcilable, things to different people.

By that I basically mean: a belief in one's mind ("thoughts happen within some mental space"); a belief in an objective world "out there"; the belief in objects ("the world can meaningfully be conceptualized as made of pieces"); the belief that our senses do not "lie" to us too much (not that they are exact and accurate, but "close enough to be functional in most situations"); the belief in something called time, which flows irreversibly; the belief in logic as a useful, indeed generally very reliable thinking tool... That may suffice. :-)

Quote:

Is there a life before or after the life you appear to be living right now?

Are you talking about death?

"Before or after" implies evidently that our present life has a start and an end. Hence it assumes a belief in time (listed above as reasonable) and in our death. We all know, even those who pretend not to know anything... We all without exception will die, including all animals beyond a certain threshold of complexity (from the flat worms up or something like that, i.e. 99% of all animal species).

What other assumption do you make by asking yhis question? That your mind exists and is tied to a material body. Reasonable. What become of the mind once the body dies? It dies too, with the body that supports and creates it. Minds cannot exist without brains, or why would our body bother fabricating anf nourishing this brain? About one third of our energy goes to our brain on average, I think. Or maybe a quarter, but a big deal of it. A human brain is a high-cost, high-maintenance device. Very mysterious too, but there is little doubt that it creates or supports the mind.

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Quote:

Frank Apisa said: "Reasonable uncertainty" can mean vastly different, and irreconcilable, things to different people. "

Yes, the key word is "reasonable", and as reasonable people we have to go through life deciding what's reasonably certain or uncertain based on the information that's given to us through our senses and through TV and newspapers.
For example it's reasonably certain (after weighing up the facts) that man landed on the moon, and that Oswald shot Kennedy and that Al-Qaeda did 9/11, even though conspiracy theorists think otherwise.

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@ossobuco,

I think "ultimate truth". The final say. The true theory of everything. But the "final reality" means nothing to me.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You have failed to defined "ultimate" so far. What you have defined is your meaning of the phrase "ultimate reality": "whatever IS". Which for the rest of us is the definition of "reality". Therefore the word "ultimate" means nothing very clear to me, in that phrase as you define it... It appears to be redundant. Are you aware of that?

I am aware that you are playing a game...rather than answering the questions that will call into question your mocking attitude toward my acknowledgement that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

Shortened: I do not know the ultimate REALITY.

Keep at it if you must.

But why not just disregard that modifier (as I suggested)...and try to deal with the question I asked in my last post?

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@Olivier5,

Correction: I think "ultimate truth" means something. The final say. The true theory of everything. But the "final reality" means nothing to me.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I do not know the ultimate REALITY.

Do you know the REALITY any better?

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@Olivier5,

Wait. When you speak of the "true nature of reality", are you talking of the true, objective essence of things (noumena), as opposed to how they appear to us (phenomena)?

Only then would your question make any sense to me. And I can't answer a question until it makes sense to me.

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@Olivier5,

This all reminds of the poor bank robber who fled in confused panic when the intellectual teller asked him to define his terms.

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@JLNobody,

Impasse.

Once more I note we have Frank Apisa going down the elephants standing elephants route, with JLN and others suggesting the pitfalls of taking language to be representational of something external to the context of its usage.

Surely the whole point about the phrase “belief system” is that there is no agreement as to the status (truth value) of premises and in most cases nor could there ever be ! As Olivier (I think) pointed out, any argument to the contrary assumes at least Kant’s noumena or inaccessible objective reality against which to never establish the premises, BUT that assumption is itself a belief system ( or another of Frank’s Elephants).

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I do not know the ultimate REALITY.

Do you know the REALITY any better?

I told you clearly that I consider them to be the same.

I don't mind playing your game for a bit, Olivier...but I won't help you mock your game.

Some people say “armed gunman” some just say “gunman”; some say “consensus of opinion” some just say “consensus” I prefer ultimate REALITY over REALITY or reality.

Just a preference.

So lighten up a bit. And rather than use this as a way of avoiding the discussion...try the answering the question.

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

This all reminds of the poor bank robber who fled in confused panic when the intellectual teller asked him to define his terms.

I'm not fleeing. I am right here...and I don't don't plan on going anywhere.

I think Olivier is using this nonsense to avoid actually dealing with the questions...and the questions can lead us to a discussion of why he thinks it so strange that I would say I do not know about things I do not know about.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Impasse.

Once more I note we have Frank Apisa going down the elephants standing elephants route, with JLN and others suggesting the pitfalls of taking language to be representational of something external to the context of its usage.

Surely the whole point about the phrase “belief system” is that there is no agreement as to the status (truth value) of premises and in most cases nor could there ever be ! As Olivier (I think) pointed out, any argument to the contrary assumes at least Kant’s noumena or inaccessible objective reality against which to never establish the premises, BUT that assumption is itself a belief system ( or another of Frank’s Elephants).

Fresco...I am saying that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

You like to pretend you do...and like to pretend you are not actually doing so.

In my opinion, my position is more ethical and honest than yours.

If you want to consider "I do not know" to be a "belief"...do so. I guess I could make a case for it if required to do so in debate. But I have the ethics, honesty and confidence in self to state "I do not know"...and some of the other people here, including you, don't.

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@Frank Apisa,

Ok. If this is about reality, I know quite a lot about it. E.g. earth is a planet orbiting the sun. All men are mortal. Boys have dicks and girls have cunts. Etc.

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@Frank Apisa,

And I am saying for the umpteenth time that the words "is" ,"know", "reality" and "truth" only have currency/meaning in contexts in which they can be tested. In short, you have been saying NOTHING AT ALL for all the years you have been spouting your mantra UNLESS YOU HAVE A BELIEF SYSTEM INVOLVING THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH ULTIMATE TESTING. The fact that you deny having such a belief system (or any !) is blatantly facile. And even worse is your failure to understand that those who have spotted the holes in your word game are NOT THEMSELVES MAKING CLAIMS about the nature of "reality" when in essence they are are pointing out why you are merely spouting drivel.

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@JLNobody,

People who don't know what they want rarely get what they want...

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@Frank Apisa,

I was trying to help you express yourself clearly, Frank. I can't answer your question if I don't understand it. Nor can you understand the answer if you don't understand your own question...

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Olivier5 wrote:

Ok. If this is about reality, I know quite a lot about it. E.g. earth is a planet orbiting the sun. All men are mortal. Boys have dicks and girls have cunts. Etc.

All those things do seem to be that way...and most of us live our lives as though it is so.

But that is not "knowing" it is so.

And when talking about REALITY...in other words, when talking about what actually IS...those are assumptions only made by non-serious people.

I expected you to be a serious person.

Goes to show ya!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

those are assumptions only made by non-serious people.

1) how is it "not serious" to say that "earth is a planet orbiting around the sun"? Are you under the impression that astronomers are jokers or something? Do you know better than they do?
2) How the heck would you know that "those are assumptions only made by non-serious people" if by your own reckoning, you know nothing about reality????

Tsk tsk tsk... Only non serious people contradict themselves constantly..

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

And I am saying for the umpteenth time....

'Oh...be careful with that, Fresco. There are people here who get very upset with others who say the same thing over and over again. They claim it is boring. Glad you don't feel that way.

Quote:

...that the words "is" ,"know", "reality" and "truth" only have currency/meaning in contexts in which they can be tested.

I see! And you suppose that because you say it is that way...all the rest of us have to fall into line and accept that it is so?

Well...we have a problem then.

Quote:

In short, you have been saying NOTHING AT ALL for all the years you have been spouting your mantra UNLESS YOU HAVE A BELIEF SYSTEM INVOLVING THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH ULTIMATE TESTING.

Only if I accept your take on things...which I do not. No insult intended, Fresco, but I just cannot abide pseudo-intellectual rambling as being of any value at all.

Quote:

The fact that you deny having such a belief system (or any !) is blatantly facile.

Do ya think?

I am pretty sure I do not do any "believing", Fresco.

That does seem to stick in your craw. You ought to investigate why that is so.

Quote:

And even worse is your failure to understand that those who have spotted the holes in your word game are NOT THEMSELVES MAKING CLAIMS about the nature of "reality" when in essence they are are pointing out why you are merely spouting drivel.

You seem out of sorts, Fresco. I usually have to bounce you around a bit before you get to this stage of frustration.

Hope there are no physical problems...and that most of this is due to the mental difficulties you deal with.

Wink

1 Reply

Destroy My Belief System, Please!

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