Officer's body burnt in 'Islamic revenge'

I have re-read it and it still that paragraph says quite simply that (according to somebody who ought to know better) war comes after inviting people to become Muslim (No thanks!) and then offering kind advice (You really should become a Muslim because Allah rocks!)... THEN, according to your text, war is OK.

This is from the end of your quote:

'In all cases, Muslims should not initiate the aggression, for Islam is the religion of mercy. War is not the first option in the life of Muslims; rather, it comes after da`wah (inviting to Islam) and kind advice."

Don't initiate aggression.
War is not the first option, it is the third, after an invitation to Islam and "kind advice."

What do *you* think that means?

PS -- If you're calling me "Piffer" -- please note, I'm female.

Also... the headline was inflammatory but I think I speak for many when I say I find it shocking that in the 21st c. of the C.E. there are folks who have it in their current religious hadiths that it is OK to cut off an ear if it has been done to one of "their own." The Muslims are the ones who are making a huge deal about being different. Americans have been far more welcoming of all groups to the United States, and far less likely to cut off an ear, rape a girl or have multiple wives.

Just in case you're wondering, I'm in equal opportunity dismay over any other fundamentalist. All that means, to me, is that they want to set themselves apart and be different.

What I find so offensive in this thread is the phrase "bizarre Muslim ritual." It is designed to be inflammatory. I don't know what the Spanish government minister's reasoning was for using the phrase, and I would hope he was chastised for it, but such rhetoric is tailor made for petty low-browed hate mongers like Tarantual to exploit.

The interior ministry said the act of desecration could have been part of "an Islamic rite of revenge".

Second, it is permissible to mutilate the dead only in case of retaliation.

right now the reality of the world situation overrides more tolerant thoughts.

As I said, I have known a few people who were Muslim, and they were not rabble-rousers or full of hatred. I'm sure that most Muslims probably are peaceful, but it is a strange religion and I think all religions have a tendency to make people twisted. This one just twists a little harder.

Islam may be a "religion of peace" (potential irony), but its adherents have been some of the most violent opponents of modern civilization from the last half of the 20th century.

Granted each religion have had periods of violence (Crusades, etc), but I'm not stressing hundreds or even thousands of years ago. I'm pointing out what transpires today.

To those who have risked censure by expressing honest opinions outside of "political correctness" I say, admirable. I may not agree with everything you say, but in one fundamental issue I concur. Islam may be a "religion of peace" (potential irony), but its adherents have been some of the most violent opponents of modern civilization from the last half of the 20th century.

How many suicide bombers kill innocents every year and are not Islamic?

How many Bhuddists detonated C-4 in marketplaces last year?

How many planes have Christians hijacked in the last decades?

Granted each religion have had periods of violence (Crusades, etc), but I'm not stressing hundreds or even thousands of years ago. I'm pointing out what transpires today. Most Muslims are probably peaceful, but the fact remains that the vast majority of individuals alive in the world today who support and at times carry out attacks targeted at innocent civilians in the name of religion participate in this religion.

I wish it were not so, but I choose realism over "correctness".

Hobitbob -- I am annoyed but not surprised by your running commentary about me. I am telling it as I see it. You don't like that and hit at me while continuing to apologize for Islam. Still, you haven't convinced me of anything except you are the one who is being blind to reality. You can be as tolerant as you want, but if someone is bearing down on you with a large, deadly weapon, I hope that you get out of their way.

Despite your uncalled-for slur on my character, there is a huge difference between fearing someone because they look different (fear of other races) and fearing someone because they act different because of their religion.

That has become especially evident when these same religious folk repeat odd mantras about Allah being infallible on every single document and in every official speech, while their most sacred documents discuss the ways to "encourage" changing everyone else's belief system.

The fact that the more I learn (unwillingly and with an awful fascination) about this religion, the more I find not to like. Yes, the Bible says things about an eye for an eye, etc. but that is, for most people... the secularized Christians... an old Judaic law, not a Christian one, and nobody except the most wacko ones believe it.

Meanwhile, I'd like to point out that I am neither Christian nor Jew, I'm a freakin' Pagan.

(And I KNOW what the Muslims think of Pagans and I resent it.)

The problem with Islam is that instead of a more tolerant "new testament" there are hadiths and shari'ah laws which are much crueler and much less likely to be acceptable to anyone outside the religion.

To find that when Muslims are really angry they can point to some paragraph by somebody and see that it is acceptable to mutilate people is something YOU should find shocking.

But no... apparently, you have fallen back on the ... it is all the Americans (and Brits and French and etc.) FAULT because of old lines drawn in the sand and establishment of Israel and oh, we've been mean to them and stolen their oil. To me, the rank and file Muslim would be smarter to look towards their own leaders for who is stealing what, but... I digress.

I don't know of any mutilation by Americans on Muslims, but that is, to you, OK, because all it takes is that Muslims believe it happened to them.

Maybe not really a mutilation, maybe it was symbolic, but it seemed to be equal in the minds of their leaders who must be right because their god tells them they are.

And that is a big problem. Whenever there are no checks to a system such as Islam, then hell is bound to follow, whether you call it politics or religion. I am losing patience with this entire apologetic tone for the entire Islam culture. I wish that you would take a moment to tell me what you see as their flaws. It wouldn't kill you to mention them, would it?

I must admit, I see plenty. I am in agreement with Taslima Nasrin. I especially don't like the way the treat their women (The reality of it, not the glorified tenets of the religion which can be and are so easily changed by a hadith) and frankly, that is a deal-killer for me right there.

I also don't like the way they remain, in fact, they seemingly glory at still being, in the midst of a stupid tribal culture of who owes whom, who is related to whom and who hates whom.

These Muslims need to, in my very personal opinion, drag themselves out of the dark ages of fundamentalism and smell the poppies.

The reality is also, I'd like to point out, that if the United States truly wanted to blow Iraq out of the water and hang the consequences to any women and children, they would and they could do so. We have big weapons, monstrous weapons. Despite George Bush being, imho, a nut case, we are refraining from that and trying not to do any damage except to the hate-mongerers. It is true that there are lots of Americans over there right now trying to rebuild that country. While I don't agree with the reasons we are there, I don't see the Americans (or any of the rest of the coalition) as stealing stuff, raping women, mutilating corpses or blowing up trains. I doubt if al Qaeda would be so circumspect.

I am not "apologizing" for Islam. I simply find the tendency of you, and some others on this board to demonize an "other" reprehensible. ....

For the umpteenth time, the cyber-fatwa above condemns the practice! I have rarely met a pagan who shares such stupid ideas with the fundamentalist Christians. It makes me quite sad.

ISIS promotes freedom of expression, freedom of thought and belief, freedom of intellectual and scientific inquiry, freedom of conscience and religion - including the freedom to change one's religion or belief - and freedom from religion: the freedom not to believe in any deity.

Statement of Principles
We share the ideals of a democratic society, and a secular state that does not endorse any religion, religious institution, or any religious dogma. The basis for its authority is in man-made law, not in religious doctrine or in divine revelation. In a theocracy of the type that Islamic fundamentalists wish to establish, sovereignty belongs to god, but in a democracy sovereignty belongs to the people. We therefore favor the firm separation of religion and state: without such a separation there can be no freedom from tyranny, and such a separation is the sine qua non for a secular state.

We believe in the primacy of the rule of law: a common civil code under which all men and women have equal protection of their rights and freedoms.

We endorse the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenants on Human Rights without qualification. We are particularly concerned to promote and protect the rights of women and those with minority beliefs: all should be equal before the law.

We are dedicated to combating fanaticism, intolerance, violent fundamentalism, and terrorism by showing the intellectual inadequacy of the fanatics' programmes, the historical inaccuracy of their claims, the philosophical poverty of their arguments, and the totalitarian nature of their thought.

We defend the right of free inquiry, and the free expression of ideas. We therefore reserve the right to examine the historical foundations of Islam, and to explain the rise and fall of Islam by the normal mechanisms of human history.

hobitbob wrote:

I am not "apologizing" for Islam. I simply find the tendency of you, and some others on this board to demonize an "other" reprehensible. ....

For the umpteenth time, the cyber-fatwa above condemns the practice! I have rarely met a pagan who shares such stupid ideas with the fundamentalist Christians. It makes me quite sad.

Oh for Pete's sake. Demonize an other? Share stupid ideas with fundamentalist Christians? The Muslim religion calls for demonizing everybody but them... and now, it is about demonizing those within their "otherness" who aren't radical enough.

It is hard not to demonize a group that calls me a demon. Read your text, Muslims don't like Polytheistic Pagans. I'm making a huge assumption that most Muslims want to leave me alone about my religion just as much as I want to leave them alone about theirs. I am not going to go back and forth on this with you, Hobitbob. I don't want to know more about Hadiths, or Shari'ah Law or be given yet another description of how good the Koran is. Really, I doubt there is a single Muslim who wants to know about the poetry I read, the beliefs I have or the texts I consult. But somehow because I'm an intolerant, demonizing stupid person, I am supposed to read and "try to understand" this religion. Well, I've read enough.

IMHO The entire Muslim religion sucks. Just because I feel that way doesn't mean I'm stupid. It doesn't mean that I haven't thought about it. It doesn't mean I'm intolerant. It does mean that I am not anxious to read yet another goddam Fatwa.

F*** the Fatwas.

The fact that Muslims would be willing to have a recent and straight-faced discussion of whether or not mutilation could be OK under certain circumstances is enough to make me scream. Can you imagine the uproar if leaders of the UN decided to have a long-winded discussion about when and where mutilation might be good?

Oh, Hobitbob, I'm glad that they decided it wasn't a good thing. I'm just surprised that it came up at all. Of course it came up for one reason.

The fact is that corpses have been mutilated and it wasn't done by Christians and it wasn't done by Jews and it wasn't done by Hindus and it wasn't even done by Polytheistic Pagans.

You seem to think that I should be thrilled that after that planned and extensive mutilation in Falujah last week, a bunch of guys (not any women, of course) get together in turbans and tut-tut. Well, where's the justice? Where's the apology? Where's the "Oops"?

Here are some Muslims I like: The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS) which was "formed to promote the ideas of rationalism, secularism, democracy and human rights within Islamic society."