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Officer's body burnt in 'Islamic revenge'

 
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:45 pm
How would you like to be the family of this guy? And who would ever think of doing such a thing?

Quote:
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 20/04/2004)

The body of a police special forces officer who died when Islamic terrorists blew themselves up in Madrid was taken from its grave, mutilated and burnt yesterday.

The coffin and body of special agent Francisco Javier Torronteras were pulled from the tomb in Madrid Sur cemetery in Carabanchel and pushed 1,000 yards in a wheelbarrow before being doused with petrol and set alight.

The body was found with a pick driven into its head and a spade dug into its chest.

Although no motive was immediately apparent, police speculated that it could be the work of sympathisers of the Moroccan terrorist group that carried out the train bomb attacks in the Spanish capital on March 11, killing 192 people and injuring 1,900.

The interior ministry said the act of desecration could have been part of "an Islamic rite of revenge".

Agent Torronteras, 41, was killed leading a Special Operations Group team to dislodge terrorists suspected of the Madrid massacre last month.

The seven terrorists blew themselves up in a flat in the Madrid suburb of Leganes a fortnight ago as police moved in to arrest them, injuring 11 other policemen. At least three had been accused of the railway bombings.

Police said the attack on the grave was carried out by at least two people who prised the marble headstone off with a jemmy.

Security was strengthened at the cemetery, where the smell of burning still lingered yesterday afternoon.

Police have provisionally charged 18 people over the railway bombings.

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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,748 • Replies: 39
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Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:52 pm
I know it's not PC and Mr. Bush is only too ready to tell us that Islam is our friend, but I'm sorry Mr. Bush, Deecups has no interest in being friends with Islam.

These people aren't like us and they never will be.

Yet, Mr. Bush thinks Iraq will blossom into some sort of Democratic nirvana under the watchful eye of the US military?

Mr. Bush must have a screw lose.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 05:38 pm
Deecups36 wrote:
I know it's not PC and Mr. Bush is only too ready to tell us that Islam is our friend, but I'm sorry Mr. Bush, Deecups has no interest in being friends with Islam.

These people aren't like us and they never will be.

Yet, Mr. Bush thinks Iraq will blossom into some sort of Democratic nirvana under the watchful eye of the US military?

Mr. Bush must have a screw lose.

Deecups, read about Islam first, then make your decision. Taratual's c&p has little to do with Islam.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 05:48 pm
Yeah, they weren't Islamic, they were Jehovah's Witnesses.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 05:54 pm
Tarantulas, I have the sneaking suspicion you know as much about Islam as I do about particle physics. Perhaps less. The interior minister made an awful, ignorant, bigoted comment.
Interestingly enpough, disinterrment and burning was a common Christian treatment for the remains of those posthumously accused of heresy through the 18th century.
For the benefit of those who are actually interested in understanding one of the three "Abrahamic" religions, here is a good reading list (again).
Nonspecialist list I
List II
Islamic Civilization
Contemporary issues
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 06:00 pm
Well it's not the 18th century any more, and I don't believe you'll find any Christians these days who would do such a thing. But we know the Islamists do, don't we? After all, we saw what they did to those contractors at Fallujah. Or on the other hand, it could have been some anti-Islamic people who just wanted to make the Islamists look bad.

You're right, I know very little about Islam. That's why I'm not blaming it on anyone.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 06:53 pm
Mutilation of the body is against the principles of the Quran, against the Islamic beliefs. For those purporting to be Moslem to do this is an embarrassment to the Islamic community. Don't get me wrong. The Quran allows a 'just war' and jihad (holy war) and what a just or holy war might be is subject to interpretation. But the Quran only allows for the killing, not mutilation.

That alone should tell us that the fanatical, Islamic terrorists adhere to no creed but their own murderous ambitions.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 07:59 pm
Quote:
The interior ministry said the act of desecration could have been part of "an Islamic rite of revenge".


heh
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 09:50 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Mutilation of the body is against the principles of the Quran, against the Islamic beliefs. For those purporting to be Moslem to do this is an embarrassment to the Islamic community. Don't get me wrong. The Quran allows a 'just war' and jihad (holy war) and what a just or holy war might be is subject to interpretation. But the Quran only allows for the killing, not mutilation.

That alone should tell us that the fanatical, Islamic terrorists adhere to no creed but their own murderous ambitions.

Oh my goddess I agree with Foxy! Shocked
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 09:52 pm
Tarantulas wrote:
Well it's not the 18th century any more.

Ever been to Lusk Wyoming? Wink
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 11:15 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Mutilation of the body is against the principles of the Quran, against the Islamic beliefs. For those purporting to be Moslem to do this is an embarrassment to the Islamic community. Don't get me wrong. The Quran allows a 'just war' and jihad (holy war) and what a just or holy war might be is subject to interpretation. But the Quran only allows for the killing, not mutilation.

That alone should tell us that the fanatical, Islamic terrorists adhere to no creed but their own murderous ambitions.

Oh my goddess I agree with Foxy! Shocked

I don't, at least not entirely. I think there is enough wiggle room here for the demented to justify their actions. As with most religious writings, much is up to interpretation.
Quote:
Second, it is permissible to mutilate the dead only in case of retaliation. If anyone cuts the ear of another, his ear is to be cut in return. If he inflicts any physical damage on anyone, he should be retaliated against in the same manner. In case of war, Muslim are allowed to take vengeance for their mutilated dead mujahids (fighters) in the same way it was done to them. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126).

This verse was revealed when the polytheists mutilated the corpse of Hamzah ibn `Abdul-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) swore to mutilate seventy corpses of the polytheists in retaliation for what they had done with Hamzah's body. Hence, this verse was revealed to indicate that punishment should be done in the same manner without any sort of transgression, so that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was permitted to mutilate only one corpse of the polytheists. However, the verse also shows that patience and refraining from retaliation are better in Allah's Sight. Thereupon, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refrained from it and did not mutilate anybody.”
Source
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 11:20 pm
The full quote, including the bit Mesquite left out:
Quote:
Title

Mutilating the Dead Bodies in War
Question

As-Salamu `alaykum. Could you please clarify how Islam views the issue of mutilating dead bodies of enemies in times of war?
Date

1/Apr/2004

Mufti


Group of Muftis
Answer
Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First of all, it is to be noted that Islam prohibits torturing living people and mutilating the dead, even if they are non-Muslims. By Islamic Law, people who either of these two things are considered war criminals.

However, if the enemies of Islam keep on doing this to Muslims, then Muslims are permitted to treat the enemies in the same manner. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126).

Yet, it is better to show patience and forgiveness and never follow the way of our enemy and meet one crime with another crime, for this is not the characteristic of a true Muslim.

Responding to the question, Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, Deputy Chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, states the following:

"First, it is not allowable to torture the living or mutilate the dead, even if they are non-Muslims. In the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), when he was sending Hamzah Al-Aslami on an expedition, he instructed him saying: "If you find so-and-so, kill him. But never kill him by burning, for none uses fire in torturing except the One Who created it (i.e., Allah)" (Reported by Abu Dawud).

In another hadith, Safwan ibn `Assal said: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) sent us on an expedition and said: "Move under the protection of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Fight those who disbelieve in Allah but never mutilate (the dead)" (Reported by Ibn Majah).

Second, it is permissible to mutilate the dead only in case of retaliation. If anyone cuts the ear of another, his ear is to be cut in return. If he inflicts any physical damage on anyone, he should be retaliated against in the same manner. In case of war, Muslim are allowed to take vengeance for their mutilated dead mujahids (fighters) in the same way it was done to them. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126).

This verse was revealed when the polytheists mutilated the corpse of Hamzah ibn `Abdul-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) swore to mutilate seventy corpses of the polytheists in retaliation for what they had done with Hamzah's body. Hence, this verse was revealed to indicate that punishment should be done in the same manner without any sort of transgression, so that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was permitted to mutilate only one corpse of the polytheists. However, the verse also shows that patience and refraining from retaliation are better in Allah's Sight. Thereupon, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refrained from it and did not mutilate anybody."

Moreover, Dr. Ahmad Abu-Al-Wafa, Professor of International Law, Faculty of Law at Cairo University, adds:

"Mutilating the corpses of the dead is prohibited in man-made international law. It considers it a war crime for which severe penalty is due.

As far as Islamic Shari`ah is concerned, two main points should be stressed:

1. Mutilating corpses is prohibited in the same way torturing the living is forbidden.

2. It is better not to reply to the evil acts of the enemy in the same manner, except if responding in the same way will deter the enemy from exceeding their limits by mutilating corpses. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126) and "The guerdon of an ill-deed is an ill the like thereof. But whosoever pardoneth and amendeth, his wage is the affair of Allah. Lo! He loveth not wrong-doers" (Ash-Shura: 40).

Finally, Sheikh `Ikrimah Sabri, the Mufti of Al-Quds (Jerusalem) and Khateeb of Al-Aqsa Mosque, concludes:

In fact, the principle of reciprocity has well-established rules in Shari`ah, whereby Muslims are warned against embarking on such inhumane attitudes. For instance, if the enemy mutilates the dead bodies of Muslims, the Muslim army is not permitted to act in the same manner.

In all cases, Muslims should not initiate the aggression, for Islam is the religion of mercy. War is not the first option in the life of Muslims; rather, it comes after da`wah (inviting to Islam) and kind advice."

You can listen to the Friday Sermon delivered by Dr. Maher Hathout, at the Islamic Center of Southern California, US, titled: Mutilation of Dead Bodies from an Islamic Perspective, on April 2, 2004 Safar 12, 1425.

Also read:
Islam's Stance on Prisoners of War

War Ethics in Islam

If you have any further comments, please don't hesitate to write back

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

Allah Almighty knows best.

I honestly expected better from you.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:01 am
hobitbob wrote:
I honestly expected better from you.

I honestly think you are being overly sensitive on the issue. I only included what pertained to the point I was making. Had I left out the second paragraph the point would have appeared stronger than it should have so I included it for context.

Look again at my comments. I said that I thought it provided wiggle room for the demented.

I was arguing that Foxfyres comment that mutilation is against the koran is not entirely accurate. There is an exception and I pointed out the exception.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:37 am
My dad told me once that trying to inflict pain on an inanimate object is a sign of insanity. I think he was probably correct.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 11:51 am
hobitbob wrote:
I honestly expected better from you.


...and I expected more from you.

Foxfyre's assertion that this is clearly against the tenets of Islam is false.

It is false because the intrepretation of the quaran - just like the intrepretation of the bible - is so subjective that it is ridiculous to make such assertions.

It is clear from surahs and hadiths that the issue is vague at best.

You could make equally cogent argument for or against the mutilation of bodies, using surahs and hadiths to buttress your points. Don't let political correctness blind you to this.

This vague subjectivity is one of the prime reasons that all religious belief is utterly retarded.

When you have a religion vs itself in a no holds barred intrepretation battle, agnosticism is the always the winner.
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:22 pm
Deecups,

Your honesty is refreshing.

Bush isn't the least bit interested in "spreading the seeds of Democracy" in the Arab world.

What Bush and the PNAC crowd is interested in is destablizing the region to get a foothold in Saudi Arabia.

If Lord Bush had such lofty goals, why choose a country sitting on $4 trillion in oil? There are many countries on the planet in need of democracy. That Bush started with Iraq is not accident.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:44 pm
Geez, Hobitbob, I know you meant well, but with this quote, you failed if your intention was to make the adherents to Islam sound reasonable.:

Quote:
War is not the first option in the life of Muslims; rather, it comes after da`wah (inviting to Islam) and kind advice.


Hmmm, why does this not make me feel good about Muslim intentions? So they invite me to believe in their religion, give me "kind advice" and then go to war if (apparently) I don't go along with the program?

<shaking head>
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 05:18 pm
Quote:
However, if the enemies of Islam keep on doing this to Muslims, then Muslims are permitted to treat the enemies in the same manner. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126).

I don't see this condition as applying, do you?

Quote:
Second, it is permissible to mutilate the dead only in case of retaliation. If anyone cuts the ear of another, his ear is to be cut in return. If he inflicts any physical damage on anyone, he should be retaliated against in the same manner. In case of war, Muslim are allowed to take vengeance for their mutilated dead mujahids (fighters) in the same way it was done to them. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126).

Again, this doesn't apply because:
Quote:
This verse was revealed when the polytheists mutilated the corpse of Hamzah ibn `Abdul-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) swore to mutilate seventy corpses of the polytheists in retaliation for what they had done with Hamzah's body. Hence, this verse was revealed to indicate that punishment should be done in the same manner without any sort of transgression, so that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was permitted to mutilate only one corpse of the polytheists. However, the verse also shows that patience and refraining from retaliation are better in Allah's Sight. Thereupon, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refrained from it and did not mutilate anybody."


I notice no one seems to have acknowledged this:
Quote:
As far as Islamic Shari`ah is concerned, two main points should be stressed:

1. Mutilating corpses is prohibited in the same way torturing the living is forbidden.

2. It is better not to reply to the evil acts of the enemy in the same manner, except if responding in the same way will deter the enemy from exceeding their limits by mutilating corpses. Almighty Allah says: "If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient" (An-Nahl: 126) and "The guerdon of an ill-deed is an ill the like thereof. But whosoever pardoneth and amendeth, his wage is the affair of Allah. Lo! He loveth not wrong-doers" (Ash-Shura: 40).

I wonder why?

Piffka then made the conceptiual leap to imply that war is a way of life for Muslims from:
Quote:
In all cases, Muslims should not initiate the aggression, for Islam is the religion of mercy. War is not the first option in the life of Muslims; rather, it comes after da`wah (inviting to Islam) and kind advice."

This, from the context of the essays, seem to apply to responding to outside aggression. I may be wrong, I'm not religious, and therefore don't claim, or believe in absolute truth. I do think that the way people in America have eagerly leapt on the "Islam is evil" badwagon is reprehensible. It reminds me very much of comments made about Judaism in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 05:39 pm
The point is that Islam allows mutilation of dead bodies under some circumstances. Nobody is defending what was done.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 06:02 pm
IronLionZion wrote:
The point is that Islam allows mutilation of dead bodies under some circumstances. Nobody is defending what was done.

Had a huge and erudite reply written, ten the site went squish for a minute. Mad
Anyway, the problem is that Trantula's provocative post is designed to inspire fear and suspicion of an "other," and it is depressing how many, on and off of this board, have bought into it. Consider Piffer's comment about how he will now wonder if Muslims are contemplating war. A lot of this sort of rhetoric reminds me of similar rhetoric regarding Judaism that was common in the 1920s and 1930s. What I find so offensive in this thread is the phrase "bizarre Muslim ritual." It is designed to be inflammatory. I don't know what the Spanish government minister's reasoning was for using the phrase, and I would hope he was chastised for it, but such rhetoric is tailor made for petty low-browed hate mongers like Tarantual to exploit.
0 Replies
 
 

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