20
   

How flawed are your beliefs

 
 
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 11:52 am
@neologist,
The moment you disclose having a slit between your legs , some men feel your brain must've slid right out...so ridiculously stupid. I've been in a field where I was in an authoritarian position over men and didn't think their genitalia would slide through the cracks.
0 Replies
 
BeHereNow
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 11:55 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

You forgot the evident demonstration. Such as Joshua 23:14

Look, this is a philosophy section, not Christian.
I gave you the philosophy encyclopedia answer here, ( http://able2know.org/topic/232369-7#post-5564675 ) and your reply is Bible verses, that agree with me, even though you imply otherwise.

We can chase each other all day long with Bible verses, I am not interested.
I answered your question, and provided documentation.
I supported it with Bible verses, for the kiddies, so to speak.
You do not understand, I am not surprised.
BeHereNow
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 12:03 pm
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

my 2 pence
Faith need not be blind, faith like trust is built upon a series of observations over a period of time. Those observations are where you get your assurance from.
If I started a sequence 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Based on this record provided you trusted its source, your expectation is that the next number in the sequence would be 1.
This does not mean it could not be x, however you are satisfied that your faith is not misplaced.
Blind faith is believing the things heard, and not putting them to the test

No disagreement from me.
Here is my 2 pence.

Your heart speaks to you, tells you this is what Jesus wants, you are going to do it - no sequences, no evidence, pure faith, blind faith. Jump off a mountain top, if that is that is what is required.

"Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together. 9Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."
A lifetime of following god, to this moment of blind faith, that it is God's will.

~ ~
I will point out that in the philosophical meaning, "faith" means a certain thing, as I explained.
You want to say god does not want your blind obedience, based on faith, that is fine with me.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 12:07 pm
@BeHereNow,
neologist wrote:
You forgot the evident demonstration. Such as Joshua 23:14
BeHereNow wrote:
Look, this is a philosophy section, not Christian.
I gave you the philosophy encyclopedia answer here, ( http://able2know.org/topic/232369-7#post-5564675 ) and your reply is Bible verses, that agree with me, even though you imply otherwise.

We can chase each other all day long with Bible verses, I am not interested.
I answered your question, and provided documentation.
I supported it with Bible verses, for the kiddies, so to speak.
You do not understand, I am not surprised.
You brought up the word faith in conjunction with belief. That did not seem off topic to you. I'm sorry the kiddie section was not to your liking. But you have to finish the milk before you may have solid food.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 12:45 pm
@BeHereNow,
BeHereNow wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

BeHereNow wrote:

If I say the grass and the frog are one, that does not mean there is no frog, and no grass.

If I say the self is an illusion, that does not mean there is no Frank, and no BeHereNow.


Well...when you say that "self is an illusion"...what does it mean?

And how do you "know" it?

Let's discuss this.

I gave you the best I can on another thread, with this updated reply:
http://able2know.org/topic/174783-46#post-5564704

I have a fairly good list of references for intuitive knowledge and understanding, from both scientific and philosophical perspectives.

We should be able to agree that if Einstein and Steve jobs have something good to say about the intuitive process, there might be something to it.

Einstein quotes:
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

"The only real valuable thing is intuition."

"The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it Intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why".
- Albert Einstein
~ ~
Steve jobs:
The people in the Indian countryside don’t use their intellect like we do, they use their intuition instead, and the intuition is far more developed than in the rest of the world… Intuition is a very powerful thing, more powerful than intellect, in my opinion. That’s had a big impact on my work.
Western rational thought is not an innate human characteristic, it is learned and it is the great achievement of Western civilization. In the villages of India, they never learned it. They learned something else, which is in some ways just as valuable but in other ways is not. That’s the power of intuition and experiential wisdom.”
http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/01/11/intuition-vs-rationality/





If you want to assert that "intuition" is valuable...and that most people use it...

...you will get no argument from me.

That was not how you presented "intuition" when I took issue with it.

If a person says "Religion is the only way to achieve happiness and fulfillment in life"...that person is going to get a lot of questions from me...and probably a lot of flak.

But if someone were to say "Religion has value for many people"...we are not going to argue.

BeHereNow
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 03:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I take from your posts that an understanding or reality eludes you.
You have looked to science, and religion, and still it eludes you.
Maybe I am mistaken. maybe you have found a sure way to understand, and correctly identify, reality. I do not think so.

Myself and others have found a path to understanding reality, by intuition.
You call this idea 'absurd'. ( http://able2know.org/topic/174783-46#post-5564666 )

And now, you want me to explain to you in a post or two what myself and others have spent many years 'researching'.
You want a short cut, a golden ticket to happiness, and I do not have it to give to you.
I offer a finger pointing the way, but that is not sufficient.
You want me to explain to you why this absurd idea is so - 'good'.

If you would have said "Yes BHN, this idea of intuition is a good and valuable thing, but I want to know reality a different way, without intuition."

I would have said, 'Sorry, no can do.'
So now I say 'Sorry, no can do.'

I could send you 15 or 20 of my favorite books, some with sidebar notes, and after you digested them, I could answer questions, that may or may not help.
Do you see the problem?
You have unknowingly bought into the instant gratification of pop culture.
"Kneel and pray, and eternal bliss will be yours."
"Read this book and all will be well."
'Watch Dr Odd (aka Dr Oz), and the mysteries of the human mind and body will be revealed to you."

Sorry, you can't get there from here.
This is your opening to say "Well then. it must be bogus, or you could explain it to me."
I must say, by all appearances you have done the groundwork.

I honestly think, believe, that what you seek comes from intuition.
Others here understand what I do. You do keep your eyes and ears open, no doubt about, it is just the mind which seems to be, in a rut.

You try to understand too hard, too much effort. Just let go.





Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 03:35 pm
@BeHereNow,
BeHereNow wrote:

I take from your posts that an understanding or reality eludes you.
You have looked to science, and religion, and still it eludes you.
Maybe I am mistaken. maybe you have found a sure way to understand, and correctly identify, reality. I do not think so.


You are new here, but the following words have been heard from me often:

I DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF THE REALITY OF EXISTENCE.

I hope that clears that up for you.

Quote:
Myself and others have found a path to understanding reality, by intuition.
You call this idea 'absurd'. ( http://able2know.org/topic/174783-46#post-5564666 )


Most definitely it is my opinion that the notion is completely and utterly absurd.

Quote:
And now, you want me to explain to you in a post or two what myself and others have spent many years 'researching'.


Take as long as you want. I doubt you could do it in years...filling books.


Quote:
You want a short cut, a golden ticket to happiness, and I do not have it to give to you.


I am very happy and content. I am one of the luckiest people I know. Thing just seem to break right for me...and my outlook on life is optimistic. I certainly am not asking you for a ticket to happiness...any more than I would be asking you for help getting to my den.

Quote:
I offer a finger pointing the way, but that is not sufficient.
You want me to explain to you why this absurd idea is so - 'good'.


I have no idea of why you think I am asking this of you...but I am not. Maybe you and CM (you'll hear from him) can get together and do kumbyaya.

Quote:
If you would have said "Yes BHN, this idea of intuition is a good and valuable thing, but I want to know reality a different way, without intuition."


Why on Earth would I say that? You really are not making sense here. Perhaps you ought to just go back to saying that I am irrational.

Quote:
I would have said, 'Sorry, no can do.'
So now I say 'Sorry, no can do.'


I thought I was telling you that I though you could not do it. This is very confusing.

Quote:
I could send you 15 or 20 of my favorite books, some with sidebar notes, and after you digested them, I could answer questions, that may or may not help.
Do you see the problem?


Yes...you seem to think I am looking to you for education. I am not. I am having a discussion with a newcomer to this forum...who seems to be acting a bit grandiose at this moment.


Quote:
You have unknowingly bought into the instant gratification of pop culture.
"Kneel and pray, and eternal bliss will be yours."
"Read this book and all will be well."
'Watch Dr Odd (aka Dr Oz), and the mysteries of the human mind and body will be revealed to you."


You really have got this all wrong. Wow!


Quote:
Sorry, you can't get there from here.
This is your opening to say "Well then. it must be bogus, or you could explain it to me."
I must say, by all appearances you have done the groundwork.


This is even more absurd than the "intuition" thing, BHN.

Quote:
I honestly think, believe, that what you seek comes from intuition.
Others here understand what I do. You do keep your eyes and ears open, no doubt about, it is just the mind which seems to be, in a rut.


You intuit this from just this short conversation?

Well...that is the problem with thinking that intuition will get your truth and knowledge.

Quote:
You try to understand too hard, too much effort. Just let go.


I'll take that under advisement, BHN...and if you start making sense, I may even pay more attention to it.

Right now...just chuckling.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 03:35 pm
Jeez...where did this guy come from????
0 Replies
 
BeHereNow
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 03:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Fifteen minutes to not only digest what I have written, but craft a response as well.
Well done.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 03:44 pm
@BeHereNow,
BeHereNow wrote:

Fifteen minutes to not only digest what I have written, but craft a response as well.
Well done.


Thank you.

0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 05:19 pm
@BeHereNow,
Your philosophical viewpoint is well received my friend.
Did not Abraham have prior experiences under which he could pin his faith?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 06:10 pm
@Smileyrius,
I wonder if BHN is related to JimmyJ
secondusername
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 06:38 pm
@neologist,
Do you think they are the same person?

If so then I feel terrible for addressing bhn as a fag in a personal message.

However I was not serious when doing so. My humor is taken extremely serious because of how serious I come across.

This leaves me in thought.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 06:43 pm
@secondusername,
Many have alter egos.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 06:59 pm
Philosophy section? This thread is also tagged "Spirituality and Relgion" and "Religion." Thread tags determine what "section" they are in, not BHN>
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 07:10 pm
@Setanta,
Not that it would make a difference.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Jan, 2014 11:03 pm
Its a pity Anonymous seems to have gone, he livened up this place..
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Jan, 2014 12:51 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Perhaps he'll be back in a second
0 Replies
 
BeHereNow
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Jan, 2014 02:51 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Did not Abraham have prior experiences under which he could pin his faith?
What can I tell you except to say that 'faith' in a philosophical perspective, is taken to be something that lacks 'strong evidence', in an empirical or scientific sense.

This basis of prior experience you mention is actually reasoning.
If C follows A+ B today, shall I assume it will tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not.
Is reasoning a type of 'scientific evidence'? Not unless supported by other things, predictions that come about, for example. Other lines of reasoning, with other premises, that yield the same results. Even then it may be considered weak evidence.

In the case of the Bible, the recurring theme on this is of the nature that unbelievers lack faith and want evidence. Thomas did not believe, wanted 'evidence'.

John 20
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Do you expect evidence, or are you blessed?

Also these reminders, that evidence is not required by the faithful:

Matt.6
[30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Matt.8
[26] And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Matt.14
[31] And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Matt.16
[8] Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Luke.12
[28] If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

~ ~ ~
Your position is of the nature 'I have reason for my faith.'
In a broad sense, experience leads you to believe what you hold to be true. On any particular issue, no real 'convincing evidence', but many experiences that have convinced you.

The greatest proof any of us can have for our own beliefs is experience.
If you 'know', beyond any reasonable doubt, that you have ridden on a spaceship with aliens, no further evidence is required, for you to believe. Others will scoff, and say 'Show us the evidence.', but you have none except your own experience.
For you, this is sufficient. For others, they must accept it on faith. If they know by a lifetime of living with you, that you are a truthful person, not delusional, not one to fabricate stories, serious as a heart attack day in and day out, still, on this one issue, they must have faith to believe.

Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jan, 2014 09:43 am
There's no evidence at all that would satisfy skeptics, for example if God himself appeared in front of them they'd think he was a hallucination..Smile
 

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