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How flawed are your beliefs

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 07:40 am
It's hard to argue with this:
Quote:
What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary.~~ Steven Hawking


That's why I don't.

Joe(there you go)Nation
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 08:08 am
@BeHereNow,
The term "logically fallacious" is inappropriate. You seem to be referring to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem from which we infer that all systems have at least one axiom whose validity cannot be established from the system itself.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 08:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
No I am not kidding. Hell is hardly ever talked about and not as a place of burning fire. Hell is not described in church as a tornament to His creations.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 08:52 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

No I am not kidding. Hell is hardly ever talked about and not as a place of burning fire. Hell is not described in church as a tornament to His creations.


Do you consider Catholicism and Anglicanism...to be sects of the Christian church, Saab?

Because both consider...and teach...that both Heaven and Hell exist.
BeHereNow
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:01 am
@fresco,
I remember hearing, and reading about Gödel's theorem, and I recall there were things I disagreed with.

What I am saying is much more basic that that, it has to do with the very nature and elements of any belief system.
Actually what I am saying is that a belief system is established from itself, is self contained, is based on circular reasoning, as I mentioned.
A belief system gives validity to itself.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
Of course I do not consider Catholicism/Anglicanism nor Lutherism as sects.
Please note I did not say Hell does not exists. I said it is not described as a forever burning place.

Hell is now in our days more seen as a state of distance to God.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:30 am
@saab,

saab wrote:

Of course I do not consider Catholicism/Anglicanism nor Lutherism as sects.
Please note I did not say Hell does not exists. I said it is not described as a forever burning place.

Hell is now in our days more seen as a state of distance to God.


Actually...the Catholic church teaches that Hell does not have to be a place of fire and brimstone...or a "forever burning place"...not to be a place of torment for eternity.

You originally stated that your god would not devise a place of torture or torment for its creations. "How can a loving God create Hell to torment his creations?"...were your words.

The Catholic church teaches that the "state of distance" (as you put it) from the god is more than just a state of distance...it is eternal separation from the god...it is conscious eternal separation from the god. And the Church...and the Anglicans and Lutherans (as I understand it) consider that separation to be the single most torturous and tormenting aspect of Hell.

So I am taking exception to your original thought...that the god would not subject his creations to torture or torment...and that only "sects" teach such stuff.

Do you see what I mean?
saab
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 09:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Do me a favour of not mixing my statements with the original questions of Calamity Del.
A discussion with someone who cannot even keep two different people apart is a hopeless task.
"How can a loving God create Hell to torment his creations?"...were your words. No they were not - it was a copy of the original question
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:14 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

Do me a favour of not mixing my statements with the original questions of Calamity Del.
A discussion with someone who cannot even keep two different people apart is a hopeless task.
"How can a loving God create Hell to torment his creations?"...were your words. No they were not - it was a copy of the original question


You are absolutely, totally correct on that...I was totally wrong and I apologize. I acknowledge my mistake without qualification...except that I would suggest you learn to use the "quote" function so that a quote can easily be determined.

Be that as it may...I should have been more careful.

In any case, you did say:

Quote:
As far as I have seen and heard only sects talk about hell not the traditional denominations. In my experience you are decades behind what is preached in church.


You now agree, however, that the Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran Churches are not sects…and all teach that there is a Hell…and all talk about the foremost torment of Hell being eternal separation from personal knowledge of the god...a torment much greater than any hellfire or brimstone. (Catholics call it eternal separation from “the Beatific Vision.”)

So…essentially you were answering Calamity Del’s question “How can a loving God create Hell to torment his creations?”…in an incorrect way.

Many Christian churches…not just what you consider “sects”…teach of a Hell with much greater torment than hellfire.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
A discussion about hell has been going on in 2010 in Internet is Sweden since Stefan Svärd told about his book about hell. Normaly the question about Hell is something which is never talked about nor discussed.
Some ideas for material about the discussion.
Dr. Kenneth Kantzer wrote in Christianity Today "The last sermon on hell I heard I preached myself. And that was nearly 30 years ago (CT 21 febr 1986)
There are several ideas to read about Heaven and Hell and how different priest, pastors and preachers and laypeople see it.

It seems that what you teach - you do not preach.



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:45 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

A discussion about hell has been going on in 2010 in Internet is Sweden since Stefan Svärd told about his book about hell. Normaly the question about Hell is something which is never talked about nor discussed.
Some ideas for material about the discussion.
Dr. Kenneth Kantzer wrote in Christianity Today "The last sermon on hell I heard I preached myself. And that was nearly 30 years ago (CT 21 febr 1986)
There are several ideas to read about Heaven and Hell and how different priest, pastors and preachers and laypeople see it.

It seems that what you teach - you do not preach.



Not sure of what that last comment means...or if it was directed at me...or if the "you" was a universal "you."

Since you wrote it, would you care to explain?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:58 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Why the ad-hominem for Jews (sheeny)? And, "schmuck" is just a Yiddishism for penis
Its part of my culture. I come from a line of Jews who converted to Christianity to keep from being tortured in the Pogroms.
ANYWAY, I call em as I sees em.

Sheeny means "brite like tinfoil" inotherwords a phony. Schmuck is a cobined term and Dick is just one of the accepted meanings is a detestable fellow (That's Yinglish).


You might not be aware of the collective opinion of many Jews, but as I've read on the subject of Jews that convert to Christianity, they are often thought of by the Jewish community as VERY AMBITIOUS JEWS. No criticism from the standpoint of leaving the tribe, just looking upon them as hungry for a success that is not available as a Jew in a Gentile society.

As far as the desire to end the "torturing" in a pogrom (no torturing, just vandalism, theft and violence), in my opinion, that may be an interpretation of some other reality. Meaning, if one was tired of being the deferential/timid Jew in Europe, relief was as near as the closest Church. However, calling someone an ephithet reflecting comtempt for Jews, just means, in my opinion, that that term is still alive in the hinterlands you inhabit, since contempt for Jews and Jewishness is still alive in the hinterlands. In NYC people just say "Jew" and it connotes one that has all the negative stereotypes that one believes exists amongst Jews. The "sheeny" term is just considered too low class, in my opinion. However, using it might keep the real estate market quite Gentile, but it could dissuade any professionals from staying in the community, after one's child heard the epithet at school. It might just be biting one's nose to spite one's face? And, other professionals, also not of Christian European stock may find the hinterlands too backwards for them and their families. But you know best, what is good for the hinterlands, I'd guess.

From a psychological standpoint, do you think that using that epithet somehow proves your loyalty to a Gentile identity? You might be identifying with the wrong group of Gentiles, since Protestant America finds Jews a useful resource, and discarded that epithet, especially after 1948, so, in my opinion, there would not be a brain drain to Israel. And, Catholic America, in my opinion again, still looks contemptuously towards Jews, if not hostile as a competing community in a Protestant America, thus the survival of archaic epithets. By the way, when people know of your ancestors and your educational accomplishments, don't you think someone thought that "Jewish DNA" had something to do with it?

Have a nice Passover.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 10:59 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Good response . . . a god-botherer is someone who always has god in his or her mouth, who is always telling others what god says, what god wants, what god expects us to believe.


So, now I know what an Historical Interpretation botherer is also.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 11:19 am
@Foofie,
well you may believe anything you wish. If you think that the pogroms didn't result in torture and death, then I have some bottom land for you to buy off the Keys.
Ive always looked at the passive jews as unable to cope. My relatives never looked back at what they would be thought of as Jews since they no longer practiced.

s far as your "interpretations" of my epithets. Ive always been known for more creative ones. I get tired of calling folks morons or idiots. Its so last year.
We periodically have Yinglish or Yiddish threads , or threads where we
talk like Yoda. You need to stop thinking **** to death and embrace creativity in language or youll be thought of as a sheeny schmeggegen.

Quote:
Have a nice Passover.
Ill probably be finishing my 2013 taxes till sunset.






If you wish to be the Hall monitor, Id suggest you report me to the head rodent.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 11:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
It ceertainly was not directed to you.
It was a universal you. There is a teaching regarding Hell - but it something which is not preached about to a great extent. One deos not talk about it nor discuss hell. It is not like a few decades ago when a preacher could get the church to stink of sulphor when describing hell. And scaring people Hard work, no money and often being hungry then on Sundays getting to know you are a sinner. No suprice people started drinking.- thank goodness it is not like that anymore.

0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 01:16 pm
Quote:
Topic title: How flawed are your beliefs?

Well, Jesus said "I'm not from this world. If you don't believe me, at least believe the miracles"
So why SHOULDN'T we believe him?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 01:20 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Hes had a couple millennia of rabid marketing. Whenever anyone asks "Would I lie?" he lies.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 01:27 pm
Scientists have been scanning the heavens for years looking for signs of extraterrestrial life, but what if they've already been to earth and gone?
Jesus said- "I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going....I am not of this world" (John 8:14/ 8:23)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/stargate-known-universe.gif~original
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 01:33 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
pretty snotty wasn't he?
Amazing how many are sucked into the made up"mystery" .
We can almost follow the full evolution of the Jesus story and how he has been made more and more a deity by successive generations of the priesthood.

0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Jan, 2014 01:43 pm
Quote:
Farmerman said: We can almost follow the full evolution of the Jesus story and how he has been made more and more a deity by successive generations of the priesthood

When somebody pulls stunts like this he won't need priests or anybody else as his publicity agents..Smile

The 37 MIRACLES OF JESUS
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
"..even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38}

Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death
 

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