Can one Proof that God doesn't exist?
Lola wrote:I think Tex-Star is onto something, but it is not inclusive enough. I think religion, like everything else in our lives, is used to manage affects (feelings) like love. But to look below the surface of one feeling (love) and our wish that we could somehow make it the only feeling we have, we must acknowledge that we have all sorts of feelings. And these feelings aren't chosen, nor are they controllable in the sense of whether we have them or not. We are our feelings, so it seems to me we're better off to be open to the discovery of what those feelings are than to resort to, what I think religion does, a method which supports the use of repression and denial of reality. Human nature is both love and aggression, or at least I have seen absolutely no evidence that convinces me otherwise, of one and not the other. Or one without the other.
I not only don't believe in a god, as defined by most religions (religion meaning organized religion which postulates a human like god, a man (or woman) I also think it is a system of affect management that does not work as well as others. I believe in science. I choose "science" rather than "nature" because science is the study of nature, it is a system of thought about what is and is not likely to be natural.
So, in summary, I believe science is a superior method of influencing our world and of getting what we want from it. So by belief, I guess I've come around to saying, I mean a belief in the superior function of science over religion. It is the function I believe in. And I see no value added to this by calling the function "God". Enough for now. Must let go of this and send it out with the request that others please respond.
Lola, I don't think it matters what we study. We still must learn to change our behavior by changing our thoughts. Thoughts are things, in our very tissue, they affect us. Someone once said that if we will but change our thoughts God will change our feelings. But, "God" is only a word, we are God.
Tex-Star
there is also the contention that changing behavior is what changes thoughts.
This sentence asserts absolutely nothing.
Sometimes I feel tired of talking about this subject. And tonight is one of those times. Love you all. Hate you all too. No way to change either my feelings or thoughts without new understanding. I don't believe in things I don't believe in. I've never understood how I was supposed to. And I'm not going to try. Morality is a matter of each individual's conscious and has nothing to do with the rules of others. I certainly don't want anyone telling me if I'm moral or not. You may tell me if you think I behave in an ethical/unethical way, but not too many times. Because if I don't agree with you or even if I do, I'll begin to get annoyed and then things get unpleasant.
I agree with Dys about the definition of religion. But if you want to define it in another way, all you're saying is that according to your definition, my belief in the scientific method is religion. Nothing more.
Science to me is freedom. Or as much freedom as we'll ever have. It doesn't have soul, but it makes it possible for me to exist, knowing myself and finding ways to love/hate my intimates.
Good night, y'all
I'm feelin' you Lola,
...I had to drop back from the topic, and peep in occasionally myself. I was raised a Baptist, but years ago , I started studying all religions, and found a simular thread that runs through all of them. They are also, all too dogmatic for me. So now, I consider myself more of a spiritual person. I believe in a supreme entity, which I choose to call God, but I wouldn't fight anybody about the name. About three decades ago, I decided to set up My own code of ethics, and I follow them not for a reward, or fear of hell, but because I feel it's the right way to live.
...Basically I: Believe in God...Be true to myself...Treat people like I want to be treated.
Death to the Pacifists, Hail to the Tyrant???
Lola wrote:Morality is a matter of each individual's conscious and has nothing to do with the rules of others. I certainly don't want anyone telling me if I'm moral or not. You may tell me if you think I behave in an ethical/unethical way, but not too many times. Because if I don't agree with you or even if I do, I'll begin to get annoyed and then things get unpleasant.
Good night, y'all
What you have described is "Anarchy."
and i will defend anarchy as i will defend the diversity and freedom of humankind from those forces in our modern techno-industrial culture that would reduce us all, if we let them, to the status of things, objects, raw material, personnel; to the rank of subjects.
The Alluring Sensations, of a Woman...
I wholeheartedly disagree with Lola's: "Morality is a matter of each individual's conscious and has nothing to do with the rules of others."
Morality or Ethical standards allow us as individuals to live in a communal society. Our rules of Ethics, keep the "Bullies," at bay.
I do agree with Lola, that rules of Morality and Ethics, should not take away from, bind, or restrict an individuals right to "Freedom of Choice."
I have mentioned earlier, If I were a joiner, I would probably be a Buddhist. Here is a set of Moral Truths, written twenty-five hundred years ago, that I find, still true, today
The "Eightfold Noble Path."
1.) Right understanding: Understanding the truth about the universality of suffering and knowing the path to its extinction.
2.) Right thought: A mind free of ill will, sensuous desire and cruelty.
3.) Right speech: Abstaining from lying, harsh language and gossip.
4.) Right conduct: Avoiding killing, stealing and unlawful sexual intercourse.
5.) Right livelihood: Avoiding any occupation that brings harm directly or indirectly to any other living being.
6.) Right endeavor: Avoiding unwholesome and evil things.
7.) Right mindfulness: Awareness in contemplation.
8.) Right Meditation: Concentration
I am going to agree with dyslexia, and argue with that I could never free my mind of "Sensuous Desire," but try as I have, all the rest rings true
I try to live my life, following, this "Noble Path."
proof
Dyslexia, as usual
:
By the way, Ferrous, I'm sure you realize that morallity (the community ethical system) can serve both to protect members against bullies, and be used by bullies as a way of coercing those members.
JL, Your not really adding anything new, only presenting an antithetic view.
Explain your view, in the context that I presented, "The Eightfold Noble Path."
Booman, I have a similar philosophy of life, but as an atheist. Mine is very simple too. "I will treat all living things with respect and dignity." c.i.
Ferrous, I was not disagreeing with you, only making a qualification on one point, that about "bullies." By the way, your reference to the Buddha's Eightfold Noble Path, has nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with morality. It is a simply a list of prerequisites for one's liberation from the Wheel of Karma, the cycle of rebirth with all the suffering that comes from life, a life not so much of desires per se, but of attachments to those desires.
C.I. in my judgement Buddhism is a religion devoid of a God, or of gods. Only at the most popular level are there demons, and spiritual beings. At the higher, meditative and philosophical, levels (such as zen and Tendei) even Bodhisattvas (and Guatama himself) are dead, serving us now as models of compassion and wisdom. Buddhism, in short, is a form of religous atheism.
Definitions
So now we have gone from mis-definitions of God, Love, Myths, Ethics, and now Morality and Karma. Seems they all have a common theme.
I disagree with you that The "Noble Path" has nothing to do with Morality. That it "only" has to do with "one's liberation from the Wheel of Kharma."
Karma, in it's self, has a inter-twining with moral obligations of us living in a communal society.
i had a Karma Ghia once but being air-cooled it was not pleasant to drive in the colorado winters.
VW's
Drove a lot of bugs and buses (back in the sixties and early seventies,) and if that hose fell off of the shroud, there was no way you were going to get any heat.
dyslexia, did you have a copy of the "Complete Idiots Handbook on VW Repairs?"
JLN, Buddhist's still pray to Buddha. I do not believe in prayer, because it implies some superpower is listening. c.i.
well yeah ferrous i was the original Idiot that needed the quide my first VW was a '55 transporter. and the battery cable was held together with clothespins. and i can still do valve adjustments along the side of the road, after dark, with a flashlight.
Has anyone really told anybody anything on this thread? We'll probably all arrive at the right place but not necessarily by the same path. I studied all this sort of thing ages ago and now just try to see something positive about most things.
Most of my answer to Lola was left off, too much of Lola's left on. But, oh well, I really do tire of this subject, too. All of you seem OK to me.
Tex-Star
