Can one proof that god DOESN'T exist?

c.i. ..
We may meet again in a thread on emotion.

As far as I know all the major religions teach that God is within all of us. So, how would anyone prove that God is NOT within?




Tex-Star

Tex, We're still trying to prove that god doesn't exist. c.i.

This a lifelong ambition c.i.?

With my little bit of knowledge on logic, I know it can't be done. When I hear about 11th dimension, super-strings, non-matter, and black holes, I get all confused. c.i.

um wasn't it the 5th dimension that did "Up Up and Away"?

dys, Let me have the pleasure of introducing you to the 11th Dimension. I don't wish to be the only one confused in this world, and I'm recruiting more folks like you to the new world of the 11th Dimension. Have fun. c.i.

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dimens.html

Hey Tex,
...I am within god is within me.

Okay,okay...This is getting pretty murky here Let me clear it up once and for all. Proof that God exsists......Halle Berry and Catherine Zita-Jones!
These things just don't happen by chance. Hallelujah!..Can I get an Amen?

Amen! c.i. an atheist.

Yes, but I'm getting impatient. Nobody has any proof God doesn't exist.

But...when someone does something really stinking awful, God isn't there.

proof
This thread should never have lasted so long. It is OBVIOUS that one cannot prove a negative. I can't prove that angels do NOT exist; but I can be open to someone's proof that they do, but this never happens. I can, in principle prove that something like gravity or viruses DO exist meaning that the two terms point to observable phenomena. The observable phenomena of beautiful sunsets is not evidence of the existence of a "god." Just to say that something exists therefore it must have a creator, just like a house must have a human builder, is absurd. Houses are made, trees grow. Now if you want to say that trees grow according to laws "of God" go ahead, but that's a very unconvincing interpretation, and it certainly is not a statement of proof.

JLN, What bothers me the most about believing in a god is that he gets credit for creating everything, except the bad stuff. To me, he created everything or nothing. He gets credit for all the child deaths, natural disasters that kills thousands regularly, the famine, HIV/AIDS, and all the warts of life, or he doesn't get credit for creating all of life on this earth. c.i.

proof
C.I., I agree. But be careful; your argument is at a fundamentalist level of discourse. Do you argue with children about who is strongest, Superman or Captain Marvel (I remember having this argument with a neighbor when I was a child)? No, as an intelligent adult you just smile.

JLN, I guess my directness grains on some people, but I've always called a spade a spade. I'm not skilled at "smooth" talk, and get down to the nitty gritty stuff on any issue. My world has been mostly black and white with a hint of grey, because I was a bean counter when I worked for pay. c.i.

I cannot prove that no god of any kind exists. There may even be multiple gods with different agendas, which would explain a lot. But it can be proven that specific deities such as the Judeo-Christian God cannot logically exist, and that there is no supreme god who is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-benevolent, ethical, and just.

Satt, according to the one of the links you posted, Anselm said that the possibility of God's existence implies the necessity of God's existence.

The argument makes no sense. Am I missing something?

From the article on Gödel's ontological argument:



From previous discussions, I doubt that a consensus could ever be reached on positive properties. How can we determine whether a being is god-like if no one can define the necessary attributes?



We can imagine a best possible world such that a better possible world cannot be imagined. But it would be even better if it existed in reality. Therefore the best possible world that we can imagine must necessarily exist.

But the only world that we know exists is NOT the best of all possible worlds we can imagine. God could easily have done better. So if God made a less-than-perfect world with unnecessary pain and suffering, then God must not be perfectly good.



Why should a god have only positive properties? What prevents a god from having negative and/or evil properties?



A conclusion based on dubious premises is not proof of God's existence, no matter how impressive the logic.

Terry..

" I doubt that a consensus could ever be reached on positive properties. How can we determine whether a being is god-like if no one can define the necessary attributes? "

Good point, it seems.
However, in short, I can say, Godel's Pos operator is similar to the truth function in logic (we remember Godel's argument is that of (modal) logic). Every statement in a logical system is endowed with truth value, i.e., a statement is either "true" or "false", and humans are not necessarily be able to know the truth value. The prominent example is the statement,

[Statement] "Arithmetic in the first order logic is consistent."

This statement (actually it needs more elaborated expression than this) is endowed with the truth value, i.e., it is "true" or "false." However, by incompleteness theorem by Godel, the truth value is never known to humans (in the first order logic and if it is "true": if "true" it is never proved, if "false" the falsity has a chance to be proved).

There is no wonder that the values of Pos function on predicates cannot be known to humans though the values are already determined. For the proof of God(-like) it does not matter whether values of Pos function are known to humans or not. And the introduction of Pos function itself cannot be said to be a "dubious premise" as you might deem.

(Although I take a position of defending Godel, in fact, I am indifferent about his proof of existence of God(-like). It is an unpublished work (though included in Collected Works but it was not his will), and in addition, I do not think God and hence religion should be considered in the framework of axiomatic logic, which is found (or constructed) by humans.)

One thing is for certain; the values of god and man are very different. c.i.

Terry, welcome aboard! Looks like you are kinda out there on a wing and a prayer!