132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Sat 10 Nov, 2018 08:21 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

see the title of the thread? . Academic Denial of evolution usually sports an attempt at
"heres why I deny it"

(Except here on A2K) Allopatry is a type of macro evolution that IDers usually pass over wherever they can. So far from what Ive seen.
"Evolution doesnt exist because it mathematically cant and besides theres no evidence " (just read some of Ole Grumpsters ravings). You agree that evolution exists but sem to bend strongly to a religious argument . I mention allopatry because its a form of evolution that appears to be strongly tied to a dissected environmental base and two or more changing environments from which the parent species had originated.
Im always interested how "Scientific ID" handles the discussions of a changing nvironment and biological responses.
Just curious , Im sure, by having strong opinions, your opinions have to have some technical roots YES?

If you dont know why something occurs via scientific methods, HOW then, can you even mount an intelligent argument.

In my fild, Ive always taught the phrase that the BEST geologists have been the folks that have seen the most rocks. We are always put upon by rock colletors who argue points out of science ignorance(BUT, when straightened out, some of these folks become scholars). NOT SO with most evolution deniers. They may read one isolated ubjct and then dwell on its power to "PULL DOWN DARWINIAN EVOLUTION", yet they dont recognize the many other points of parallel evience that allow us to explain how this "isolated fact" falls seamlessly into the panoply of all evolutionary evidence.
As I said, JUST CURIOUS.

There's a simple idea that goes beyond any discussion about the specifics of science, which is that whatever turns out to be true in terms of the history of the universe and life, etc.; it happened because God. God is just an attribution of ultimate agency to the universe and nature, so there's no scientific argument that can make any claims regarding the existence or non-existence of God, because divinity can simply be attributed to the workings of the grand machinery of the universe, whatever those may be.

So as a person who believes in God, I don't have any fear of science revealing some truth that undermines religion, because whatever turns out to be true is true because God made it so. Whatever is less than true is sin because lying and misunderstanding are deviations from pure truth. Now, remember I am also Christian so I believe we can't ever expect to escape sin completely, because it is built in the imperfect nature of the creation, but we can strive to do better and accept forgiveness for always falling short of perfection.

So, science, like religion, aims to know the truth of God/nature, but we accept that our knowledge must always remain tentative because it will always evolve further toward better truth. There's no finish line in science or moral achievement/reform.
farmerman
 
  2  
Sat 10 Nov, 2018 08:35 pm
@livinglava,
See thats the problem we have. As a scientist with over 40 years work in the field that has included applied paleontology and evolutionary cladistics, Im bound to try to come up with strong evidence an examples and experiments that underpin what I say about any conclusions Ive made (In fact, I reach no conclusions until I first have a ile of data an weve analyzed what its telling us).

You guys, not so much.
HOW would you propose evidencing that "everything starts with a God?? since you seem to just have agreed that you cant, then why not just be strait up nd sate that you believe through faith alone and thats that.

Thats all. At least you were honest enough to discuss how youve arrived at your worldview . Many of the others have tried to mount fake or silly arguments or carry on with loutish rants as if they hve some authority in what they rant about.





0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Sat 10 Nov, 2018 09:21 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
I can't argue with density, so try to imagine that sometimes words seem like salad to you because you can't understand them and then don't be so arrogant as to attack what you don't understand.

Ha, I don't think I've ever seen anyone accuse Fresco of not understanding words before. That's like accusing Setanta of not knowing history.
OldGrumpy
 
  0  
Sat 10 Nov, 2018 11:54 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Ha, I don't think I've ever seen anyone accuse Fresco of not understanding words before. That's like accusing Setanta of not knowing history.


Knowing History? lol
Does he know then that most of "History" is wrong? That we are fed bullshit History?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 03:17 am
@rosborne979,
You are too kind.

At the risk of preaching myself, I again point out Wittgenetein's observation that many arguments would be rendered vacuous if participants understood that all words are contextual in meaning. For example, the argument here that 'existence of God' is on a par with 'existence of a multiverse' is vacuous, because the existential context for 'God' is a psychological and sociological one, whereas that of 'multiverse' is that of a functional mathematical entity emerging from QM which will stand or fall on the basis of its paradigmatic coherence. In short 'existence' is a human construct like any other, and has no ultimate (axiomatic) implication even though religionists take comfort in assuming that it is. They even transparently play the game of trying to transcend the limits of language by capitalizing their 'sacred words' as in 'His Will', or 'Truth'.
OldGrumpy
 
  -1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 03:59 am
@fresco,
Quote:
whereas that of 'multiverse' is that of a functional mathematical entity emerging from QM which will stand or fall on the basis of its paradigmatic coherence.


Well, the whole of QM is very very wrong, hence this is only gibberish & gobbledygook.
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 04:04 am
I would take the opportunity to point out that history is what it is, without regard for narratives that people construct, often to glorify their society, or to excuse its failings. Conspiracy theories are prime examples of narratives which have no relation to history, but only to one's political or social agenda. A classic example of this are the various forms of the Pearl Harbor conspiracy narratives. The fact of the matter is that the Japanese, under the tutelage of Admiral Yamamoto, planned, trained for and executed one of the greatest naval operations in history. Their security was as near to perfect as was possible. It was only after the First Air Fleet was leaving Hitokappu Bay that the personnel of the fleet were told of the target and the nature of the mission. Even the Imperial Navy General Staff knew nothing of it until late September, not even two months before the attack was carried out. Americans at that time had abused Japanese immigrants and second- and third-generation Japanese-Americans routinely since the late 19th century. Stereotypes of buck-toothed, myopic, bandy-legged, almost simian people were common, and that was a stock image of the "Yellow Peril" conspiracy theory of the day. It was profoundly humiliating to have been beaten, and beaten so soundly by a people so universally despised. Despite the investigations by the Army (responsible for the air defenses of Oahu) and the Navy, and two congressional investigations, the sense of a shamed and very angry public was that something devious must have aided the Japanese to have accomplished something of which they were patently not capable. This is the grand-daddy of the modern conspiracy theories, and persists to this day. The amount of bullsh*t peddled in aid of that one is really incredible.

When it comes to bullsh*t historical narratives, nobody can match the conspiracy theorists.
OldGrumpy
 
  0  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 04:52 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 04:04 am
I would take the opportunity to point out that history is what it is, without regard for narratives that people construct, often to glorify their society, or to excuse its failings. Conspiracy theories are prime examples of narratives which have no relation to history, but only to one's political or social agenda. A classic example of this are the various forms of the Pearl Harbor conspiracy narratives. The fact of the matter is that the Japanese, under the tutelage of Admiral Yamamoto, planned, trained for and executed one of the greatest naval operations in history. Their security was as near to perfect as was possible. It was only after the First Air Fleet was leaving Hitokappu Bay that the personnel of the fleet were told of the target and the nature of the mission. Even the Imperial Navy General Staff knew nothing of it until late September, not even two months before the attack was carried out. Americans at that time had abused Japanese immigrants and second- and third-generation Japanese-Americans routinely since the late 19th century. Stereotypes of buck-toothed, myopic, bandy-legged, almost simian people were common, and that was a stock image of the "Yellow Peril" conspiracy theory of the day. It was profoundly humiliating to have been beaten, and beaten so soundly by a people so universally despised. Despite the investigations by the Army (responsible for the air defenses of Oahu) and the Navy, and two congressional investigations, the sense of a shamed and very angry public was that something devious must have aided the Japanese to have accomplished something of which they were patently not capable. This is the grand-daddy of the modern conspiracy theories, and persists to this day. The amount of bullsh*t peddled in aid of that one is really incredible.

When it comes to bullsh*t historical narratives, nobody can match the conspiracy theorists.



So, we can safely say, you have never deeply researched any conspiracy theory at all!

What else is new?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 05:28 am
@OldGrumpy,
Which college threw you out ?
OldGrumpy
 
  0  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 05:33 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Which college threw you out ?


Why? Something I wrote?
OldGrumpy
 
  0  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 06:01 am
Now, let's go back to the topic, the lack of evidence for evolution.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 07:16 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
then perhaps you can explain the ID evidence regarding allopatric evolution, and acquired characteristics that are preserved within two to 4 generations.

Quote:
Ex:20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


I'd hate to disapoint you :-)
fresco
 
  3  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 08:01 am
@OldGrumpy,
Quote:
Why? Something I wrote?

Everything you write indicates that you are an academic failure with a sour grapes problem. The mere fact that you think scientific theories could be 'right or wrong' rather than 'useful or limited' shows a complete lack of understanding of what science is about.
Of course, you could simply be here for the 'Troll of the Year' award, in which case I am pleased to inform you that you are a nominee.
OldGrumpy
 
  -2  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 08:06 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Everything you write indicates that you are an academic failure with a sour grapes problem.


That's good! That's a compliment! The Academic world is sooo wrong! Thank you! That's the whole idea of the academic instituions. to keep us from any TRUTH.

Quote:
The mere fact that you think scientific theories could be 'right or wrong' rather than 'useful or limited' shows a complete lack of understanding of what science is about.


Dd I now? Or did I ask to study Kuhn & Feyerabend??
And yes, Acedemic institutions are VERY wrong. Again, that is their designated role in society!



Quote:
Of course, you could be simply be here for the 'Troll of the Year' award, in which case I am pleased to inform you that you are a nominee.


Always if people write something another won't like the Troll-card comes out!
How cheap that is.




And well, in the end it is all psychology. but not the pseudo-science called academic psychology!!
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 09:34 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
Why? Something I wrote?

Everything you write indicates that you are an academic failure with a sour grapes problem. The mere fact that you think scientific theories could be 'right or wrong' rather than 'useful or limited' shows a complete lack of understanding of what science is about.
Of course, you could simply be here for the 'Troll of the Year' award, in which case I am pleased to inform you that you are a nominee.

This is a super-negative way of posting what you actually want to say, which is that you find terms like 'useful' and 'limited' better than 'right' or 'wrong' for some reason.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's because you've actually thought out the implications of the words and not just because you have an academic aesthetic taboo against calling things, 'right' and 'wrong.'

Hopefully you are culturally relative enough to realize that 'right' and 'wrong' are perfectly reasonable words to use to describe anything that is correct/good or incorrect/bad. Eschewing 'right' and 'wrong' indicates a will to avoid references to morality, and that is a subjective concern that shouldn't be pushed on others, the way it is in academia.
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 10:02 am
@livinglava,
A clueless response yet again. As a former published and peer reviewed scientist I think I am in a good position to know what 'science is about'. That word 'morality' was presumably regurgitated from your word salad department because you can't take your preacher's hat off. If you took the trouble to read the literature, you would know I am making an epistemological point and not an ethical or aesthetic one.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 10:09 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; [/quote So you say that Lamarck had God doing all his thinking?
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 10:13 am
@OldGrumpy,
But you don't actually write anything much other than your incessant knee jerk reaction to current consensual paradigms. Your alternative cultist crank's paradigm, originating from some self publicist engineer, has no more claim to validity than that of the Flat Earth Society. Hence legitimate Trollhood awaits to embrace you with open arms !
livinglava
 
  0  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 10:39 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

A clueless response yet again. As a former published and peer reviewed scientist I think I am in a good position to know what 'science is about'.

You assume that peer-reviewed academic publishing is primarily about science and not about people getting their work published and cited for the sake of job security and advancement.

Academic research is often a competition for who can produce the most realistic 3D 'living sculpture' of what funding agency assessors perceive as 'science.' People who are good at working the system get their articles and books published as part of that funding charade.

Quote:
That word 'morality' was presumably regurgitated from your word salad department because you can't take your preacher's hat off. If you took the trouble to read the literature, you would know I am making an epistemological point and not an ethical or aesthetic one.

Preaching is just a mode of communication. You preach every time you post text online. I was also talking about epistemology, but you don't actually engage in critical-epistemological discussion. Rather, you toss around a couple of insults to stun your adversary, and then you drop a couple of expensive words to make yourself seem superior. You seem to be more interested in putting others down to put yourself up than in having constructive discussion about actual ideas.

OldGrumpy
 
  0  
Sun 11 Nov, 2018 10:53 am
@fresco,
Quote:
But you don't actually write anything much other than your incessant knee jerk reaction to current consensual paradigms. Your alternative cultist crank's paradigm, originating from some self publicist engineer, has no more claim to validity than that of the Flat Earth Society. Hence legitimate Trollhood awaits to embrace you with open arms !


Ahhhh The AH's again! Ah well, what you don't seem to grasp is that it is nearly impossible to have real good mature conversations here. So why bother too much? Just look at your own childish postings above. Says it all.
You clearly also have no clue what you are writing about. I think it scares you. To know that the world is not what we have been spoonfed. So, time to grow up, eh?!
0 Replies
 
 

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