132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:28 am
@FBM,
Your inability to grasp my meaning is not for me to cater for anymore . Everyone else has 'got it' but not you . First you wanted scientists who believe in magic, now you want scientists who SAY they believe in magic, next you will want scientists who have signed Statutory Declarations saying magic is real, and what after that ?

If you cant see magic in modern physics then perhaps your god wont let you . Perhaps you dont understand modern physics . Your inability to reproduce any of the magic of modern physics tells me you dont understand the trick . All good magicians keep the trick secret and tell people it is magic . All good scientists keep the trick secret and tell people it is science .
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:30 am
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/airwank%201.gif
Ionus
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:33 am
@FBM,
Quote:
I'm rejecting red herrings and keeping the goal posts in their original position.
I call shenanigans . Show me an atom . You cant . The major feature of the magic trick and you cant reproduce it . I'm starting to think you don't understand magic or science at all .

You are the self appointed referee and say the goal posts have not moved . I am also a self appointed referee and I say they have moved .
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:34 am
For those who may actually be interested in the supernatural aspects of the MWI (many worlds interpretation) and the number of scientists who actually subscribe to this nonsense, here's a few more select quotes from the wiki page I posted initially:

Quote:
Advocates of MWI often cite a poll of 72 "leading cosmologists and other quantum field theorists"[85] conducted by the American political scientist David Raub in 1995 showing 58% agreement with "Yes, I think MWI is true".


58%, heh.

Quote:
Everett's son reported that Hugh Everett "never wavered in his belief over his many-worlds theory".[76] Also Everett was reported to believe "his many-worlds theory guaranteed him immortality".


Well, there ya go, then, eh? Who needs some cheap-ass God for eternal life when ya have QM to guarantee it, eh?

Quote:
Quantum suicide, as a thought experiment, was published independently by Hans Moravec in 1987... Quantum immortality refers to the subjective experience of surviving quantum suicide regardless of the odds
.

Cool, eh!? You could kill your self millions of times, but how could it in any way matter so long as you have "the subjective experience of surviving quantum suicide?"

With respect to some of the heathens who do not share this religious/metaphysical outlook, they say things like:

Quote:
Sean Carroll's observation: "As crazy as it sounds, most working physicists buy into the many-worlds theory."

Asher Peres was an outspoken critic of MWI; for example, a section in his 1993 textbook had the title Everett's interpretation and other bizarre theories.


MWI is considered by some to be unfalsifiable and hence unscientific because the multiple parallel universes are non-communicating, in the sense that no information can be passed between them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Unscientific, they say? Like, whooda thunk, I ask ya?

More about the quantum suicide thought experiment, mentioned above:
Quote:

At the start of the second iteration, if the Copenhagen interpretation is true, the wave function has already collapsed, so if the experimenter is already dead, there's a 0% chance of survival. However, if the many-worlds interpretation is true, a superposition of the live experimenter necessarily exists, regardless of how many iterations or how improbable the outcome...it is not possible for the experimenter to experience having been killed, thus the only possible experience is one of having survived every iteration.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality

Other sources, such as the following, at least partially explain the MWI:

Quote:
If Everett’s Many-Worlds Theory (MWT) is true, it holds many ramifications that completely transform our perceptions on life. Any action that has more than one possible result produces a split in the universe. Thus, there are an infinite number of parallel universes and infinite copies of each person.

These copies have identical facial and body features, but do not have identical personalities (one may be aggressive and another may be passive) because each one experiences a separate outcome. The infinite number of alternate realities also suggests that nobody can achieve unique accomplishments. Every person – or some version of that person in a parallel universe – has done or will do everything.

Moreover, the MWT implies that everybody is immortal. Old age will no longer be a surefire killer, as some alternate realities could be so scientifically and technologically advanced that they have developed an anti-aging medicine. If you do die in one world, another version of you in another world will survive.


http://www.universetoday.com/113900/parallel-universes-and-the-many-worlds-theory/

Well, I tell ya what!: It's sure nice to know that there are millions of billions of trillions of quadrillions of ME out there, eh!? Now that's what I call naturalistic physics, sho nuff!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:41 am
@layman,
Yeah, I'm starting to think he is just typing for the sake of it . If multiple dimensions is not above the natural, then what is it ? How is it real ? Will anyone ever see the other dimensions or is this part of the disappearing act ? Are scientists just telling us they have performed the trick and we must believe and all go home now, the show is over ?

He cant even show me the very well established magic trick of an atom . Standard magic for believers in the supernatural like multiple dimensions, intersecting dimensions, unreal dimensions that we cant see, dimensions to infinity....
Ionus
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:43 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Quote:
Arkani-Hamed said “The universe is inevitable,” he declared. “The universe is impossible.” The answer : magic .

Did he say it was magic, or did you?

I did . Do you have another term for the meaning behind what he said ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:48 am
@FBM,
Quote:
So I'm guessing from your red herrings and strawment
Just because you have memorised some logic criteria and say it applies doesnt mean that you are right . If you dont want to accept the other sides points, then say so but dont try and disguise why you dont like it .

Quote:
list of scientists
Stephen Hawking was wrong about the event horizon of black holes . When it was obvious, he asked to address a forum and told everybody he was right but not in this universe . MAGIC !
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:50 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Are scientists just telling us they have performed the trick


From what I've seen of FBM, yeah, that's ALL it takes. If some "scientist" says it, then it's certainly credible and, in all probability, true. From what I seen of his never-ending bitch fight with Herald, he repeatedly cites QM theory as well-founded, non-speculative, and based on observation. If only he knew.....
Ionus
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:51 am
@FBM,
Quote:
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/airwank%201.gif


So you admit we have beaten you . I accept your surrender .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 01:03 am
@layman,
You know what impresses me about some of this bullshit is I had a genuine certifiable moron telling me that if I didnt believe in quantum uncertainity creating multiple universes than clearly I had not understood it which is a direct quote from one scientist who obviously didnt like criticism . Does that "the king's clothes" argument work for engineers ? I have built a lovely bridge and anyone who is dumb can not see it . Obviously we all want to appear intelligent like some here, so we can all see what a lovely bridge it is . It seems me and you can not only not see the king's clothes, but we can not see the bridge or the multiverse universe either . (multiverse universe... who thinks up this bullshit ?) Drunk

Quote:
he repeatedly cites QM theory as well-founded, non-speculative, and based on observation
Shocked Should we tell him how much of it is mathematical modelling ? Involving concepts that are very difficult to get the human mind around ? We'll ignore the easy stuff like imaginary numbers, they sound too magical .
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 01:07 am
Ironically, David Deutsch, one of the most vociferous advocates of the many worlds theory, has this to say about physics, in general:

Quote:
A great deal of harm was done to progress in both physics and philosophy by the abdication of the original purpose of those fields: to explain the world. We got irretrievably bogged down in formalisms, and things were regarded as progress which are not explanatory, and the vacuum was filled by mysticism and religion and every kind of rubbish.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hugh-everett-biography/

Heh. According to him, it's just other theories that got "filled by mysticism and religion and every kind of rubbish." I wish I knew what theories those were. They should be real doozies, eh?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 01:35 am
@Ionus,
From the Scientific American article I just cited, which, by the way says: "the physicists who reviewed the science in this article: Stephen Shenker, Leonard Susskind, David Deutsch, Wojciech H. Zurek, James B. Hartle, Cecile DeWitt-Morette and Max Tegmark:"

Quote:
Any action that has more than one possible result produces a split in the universe.


So, then, as I understand it, if I come to a "five points" intersection where I can go four different ways and choose one way, I have instantly thereby created 3 new "universes" (in which I go one of the different ways that I could have). Everybody, every day, is creating god only knows how many new universes. If they look in their refrigerator and see several drinks to choose from (e.g., beer, coke, grape juice, etc.) and take out a beer, they have just created a bunch of new universes there, too. And copies of themselves to go to those new universes, as created, too. Could L. Ron Hubbert (whatever his name is--you know, the guy who founded the religion called "scientology") come up with something that supernatural? I doubt it, he can't be as "creative" as some theoretical physicists, I would bet.



layman
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 02:02 am
@FBM,
Quote:
I asked for a list of names of physicists who claim that they believe in magic.


False. That's NOT what you asked for. That's only what you, in your revisionist history, later said you asked for.

Quote:
Both of you said that you could provide such a list.


Again, completely false. We gave you what you asked for, not what you later claimed you "asked for" when you changed your entire story.

The hell of it is, you have the unmitigated audacity to chastise us because we didn't magically anticipate your deceptive practices and respond accordingly.

Read your own posts, FBM, which I have recently reposted to refresh your "memory." Everyone else can read them---maybe you can too. Unfortunately, for you, your attempts at revisionism can't erase them.
0 Replies
 
martinies
 
  -3  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 02:20 am
@layman,
The event chooses your direction
martinies
 
  -3  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 03:04 am
@martinies,
Yes the event chooses your direction wether you turn right or left. You dont choose or actually move cos your part and parcel with the non moving mover of all things in the event and that includes evolutionary things.
0 Replies
 
martinies
 
  -4  
Thu 23 Apr, 2015 05:02 am
@layman,
Consciousness cant go left or right cos only moving things can go left or right and consciousness aint moving. Ya brain moves left and right but ya brain aint you but ya consciousness is you so you never moved. All life forms are you. You is nothing.
giujohn
 
  -2  
Sun 26 Apr, 2015 09:00 pm
@martinies,
Seems you've had way too many martinis Drunk
martinies
 
  -1  
Sun 26 Apr, 2015 11:37 pm
@giujohn,
And you are obviously at one with the unmoving mover of all things including evolved things. Death is spirit and ultimately spirit is the nonmoving mover in all happening events.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Sun 26 Apr, 2015 11:39 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-32452250

Quote:
Lower back pain linked to chimpanzee spine shape

People with lower back problems are more likely to have a spine similar in shape to the chimpanzee, our closest ape ancestor.
A lesion which forms in the disc between the bones of the spine is the reason for the differing shape.
It would have caused the vertebrae to change as humans evolved from using four legs to two legs.
The researchers say their findings could help doctors predict who may be at risk of back problems.
The study, published in BMC Evolutionary Biology, involved scientists from Scotland, Canada and Iceland.
The research team analysed the vertebrae of chimpanzees, orangutans and ancient human skeletons to investigate the relationship between the shapes of the bones of the spine, upright movement and the health of the human spine.
Prof Mark Collard, from the University of Aberdeen and Simon Fraser University in Canada, said they provided valuable insights into our ancestors' health and lifestyles.
lower back pain in humans
Back pain is a very common health issue in humans
The skeletons also provided information about how humans evolved to move on two "rear" legs.
"Our findings show that the vertebrae of humans with disc problems are closer in shape to those of our closest ape relatives, the chimpanzee, than are the vertebrae of humans without disc problems."
The research picked up that these individuals have a lesion called a Schmorl's node - a small hernia which can occur in the disc between the vertebrae.
Although there is not one cause for the node, it is thought to be linked to stress and strain on the lower back.
Evolution is not perfect, so over many thousands of years humans have not all adapted in the same way.
Prof Collard said: "Our study suggests that the pathological vertebrae of some people may be less well adapted for walking upright."
They say their findings could have benefits for modern health issues and be used as a predictive tool.


And the study itself: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/15/68

Quote:
Abstract
Background
Recent studies suggest there is a relationship between intervertebral disc herniation and vertebral shape. The nature of this relationship is unclear, however. Humans are more commonly afflicted with spinal disease than are non-human primates and one suggested explanation for this is the stress placed on the spine by bipedalism. With this in mind, we carried out a study of human, chimpanzee, and orangutan vertebrae to examine the links between vertebral shape, locomotion, and Schmorl’s nodes, which are bony indicators of vertical intervertebral disc herniation. We tested the hypothesis that vertical disc herniation preferentially affects individuals with vertebrae that are towards the ancestral end of the range of shape variation within Homo sapiens and therefore are less well adapted for bipedalism.

Results
The study employed geometric morphometric techniques. Two-dimensional landmarks were used to capture the shapes of the superior aspect of the body and posterior elements of the last thoracic and first lumbar vertebrae of chimpanzees, orangutans, and humans with and without Schmorl’s nodes. These data were subjected to multivariate statistical analyses.

Canonical Variates Analysis indicated that the last thoracic and first lumbar vertebrae of healthy humans, chimpanzees, and orangutans can be distinguished from each other (p<0.028), but vertebrae of pathological humans and chimpanzees cannot (p>0.4590). The Procrustes distance between pathological humans and chimpanzees was found to be smaller than the one between pathological and healthy humans. This was the case for both vertebrae. Pair-wise MANOVAs of Principal Component scores for both the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae found significant differences between all pairs of taxa (p<0.029), except pathological humans vs chimpanzees (p>0.367). Together, these results suggest that human vertebrae with Schmorl’s nodes are closer in shape to chimpanzee vertebrae than are healthy human vertebrae.

Conclusions
The results support the hypothesis that intervertebral disc herniation preferentially affects individuals with vertebrae that are towards the ancestral end of the range of shape variation within H. sapiens and therefore are less well adapted for bipedalism. This finding not only has clinical implications but also illustrates the benefits of bringing the tools of evolutionary biology to bear on problems in medicine and public health.

Keywords: Back pain; Disc herniation; Vertebral shape; Bipedalism; Geometric morphometrics; Schmorl’s nodes
martinies
 
  -1  
Sun 26 Apr, 2015 11:52 pm
@FBM,
Everybody knows we are a type of monkey and the spirit by using death as its forming agent did that. back pain or not.
 

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