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Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 12:47 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Relying upon voices from "authority" is just bogus argument.


Well, that depends on the circumstances. There is nothing "fallacious" in citing the works of aknowledged experts when discussing a given topic.

But a type of (misrepresentative) reference to "authority" is what generated the petition, they say:
Quote:
The statement was drafted and circulated by Discovery Institute in 2001 in response to widespread claims that no credible scientists existed who doubted Neo-Darwinism
farmerman
 
  2  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:12 pm
@layman,
I dont consider an enginer, a dentit, an inorganic chemist, as AUthorities, Their work is barely peripheral to the siisue. Theyre just being "Mined for credentil" (degrees)
I was around when the whole thing began aand it was supposed to be a smack in the face of scientists who re working in genomics, geo, paleo, evolution, microbio, embryology etc.
There are a few on that skeptics list but, ifn we red the wording , those folks are skeptical about NEO Darwinin evolution. Like Margulis, aid"lets get bck to Darwin"
Quehoniaomath
 
  -2  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:17 pm
@farmerman,
man o man o man, you are indoctinated indeed:

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-even-if-you-are-a-minority-of-one-the-truth-is-the-truth-mahatma-gandhi-68003.jpg

Do you really, really think we can rely on (indoctrinated) experts? of course not!

History is full of their mistakes!!!!!

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:26 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Like Margulis, aid"lets get bck to Darwin"


In what sense did she mean that? Can you cite your source for that? You're not just "quote-mining," are you. Wink
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:39 pm
@farmerman,
We kick about neo Darwinian and Darwinian and , s far as Im concerned, weve really not discussed it a lot.Among the several differences between the two "Schools" are these(to me) important "fly **** in the pepper" issues

DARWINIAN
Natural selection is reproductive survival of species with extinction of the "unfit"

Darwinian evolution DOES NOT consider reproductive isolation as a necessity to founding of new species

Darwinan (adaptation)
evolution works on individuals and is then passed , slowly , to the population

Darwiniqn evolution considers all heritable favorable variations

NEO_DARWINISM

Natural selection is a differential in reproductive "success" leading to changes in gene frequency
Neo Darwinism considers reproductive isolation

Neo Darwinian evolution works on the population principally

NEo Darwinism only considers heritable MUTATIONS for evolution





farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:43 pm
@layman,
read her "Acquiring genomes" book. P 7 through 11

"As Darwinits we must disagree with all the tenets of "neoDarwinism" and the "Modern evolutionary synthesis".

She sorta starts the idea that evolution is primarily adaptive to a universal selector (She calls the total environment "GAIA") at all levels

Her use if the term is unfortunate because its gotten a couple "right-wing" throat punches from the anti-science crowd
layman
 
  0  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:48 pm
@farmerman,
Thanks. I'll see if it's online. But, since you have it, I'll also ask you. What was the context? What was her point?
layman
 
  0  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:52 pm
@farmerman,
A source that came up quotes her as saying, in that same book:

Quote:
We agree that very few potential offspring ever survive to reproduce and that populations do change through time, and that therefore natural selection is of critical importance to the evolutionary process. But this Darwinian claim to explain all of evolution is a popular half-truth whose lack of explicative power is compensated for only by the religious ferocity of its rhetoric....


Hmmm, for some reason, that doesn't sound too "pro-Darwinian" to me, ya know?
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 01:55 pm
@layman,
Her points were about the nature of the universal "Natural selector" She coined the Gaia term in meaning environment all stcked up as a selector.

eg Rats keep breeding till they run out of space and food, then they go on a decline. Gaiaist thinking is that the decline favors adaptive change (I fdont know, leaner rats, who can thrive on wood chips--who knows)
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 02:00 pm
@layman,
To contintue, from what purports to be page 29 of her book:

Quote:
No evidence in the vast literature of heredity changes shows unambigious evidence that random mutation itself, even with geographical isolation of populations, leads to speciation. Then how do new species come into being? How do cauliflowers descend from tiny, wild Mediterranean cabbagelike plants, or pigs from wild boars?"


Again, I have trouble seeing how that kind of claim is compatible with a suggestion that she just wants to "go back to Darwin."
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 02:06 pm
@farmerman,
Elsewhere she says:

Quote:
But many biologists claim they know for sure that random mutation (purposeless chance) is the source of inherited variation that generates new species of life and that life evolved in a single-common-trunk, dichotomously branching-phylogenetic-tree pattern! "No!" I say.


Quote:
Then how did one species evolve into another? This profound research question is assiduously undermined by the hegemony who flaunt their "correct" solution. Especially dogmatic are those molecular modelers of the "tree of life" who, ignorant of alternative topologies (such as webs), don't study ancestors...Our zealous research, ever faithful to the god who dwells in the details, openly challenges such dogmatic certainty. This is science.


(Lynn Margulis, "The Phylogenetic Tree Topples," American Scientist, Vol 94 (3) (May-June, 2006).)
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 02:22 pm
@farmerman,
I suspect she was calling herself a "Darwinist," in contrast to Neo-Darwinists, in this sense:

Quote:
But did the neo-Darwinists ever go out of their offices? Did they or their modern followers, the population geneticists, ever go look at what’s happening in nature the way Darwin did? Darwin was a fine naturalist. If you really want to study evolution, you’ve got go outside sometime, because you’ll see symbiosis everywhere!

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/apr/16-interview-lynn-margulis-not-controversial-right

But, obviously, Darwin himself did not "see symbiosis everywhere."

Or perhaps this sense:

Quote:
Darwin conceded that the naturally selective process, by itself, did not seem to create novelty; rather, from the vast store of variants, differing organisms in nature, it only eliminated offspring that already existed by their failure to reproduce...[page 27]

How then did Darwin’s intrinsic, inherited variation arise in the first place?” “Ultimately,... he simply did not know.[page 29]


http://origins.swau.edu/papers/various/reviews/margulis.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 02:28 pm
@farmerman,
I doubt very much you'll make any difference to his education.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 02:52 pm
@farmerman,
According to Larry Moran, Margulis, "completely abandons Darwin’s theory of evolution."

Quote:
Amazingly, in 2008, Margulis was awarded the Darwin-Wallace Medal by the Linnean Society of London. Margulis, who died on Tuesday in Amherst, Massachusetts, however, was no friend of the Darwinian theory evolution....

Moran laments the fact that after 150 years since the publication of The Origin of Species, a unified theory of evolution still continues as only an elusive abstraction.

The problem: “People are always more loyal to their tribal group,” Margulis protested, “than to any other abstract notion of ‘truth’—scientists especially.” Out of fear, tribal theories of evolution reject the truth to maintain tribal loyalty
.
http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2011/11/lynn-margulis-controversial-evolutionist-remembered/

Somehow, Farmer, I'm just not quite getting the impression that the spirit of anything Margulis said was that we just needed to "get back to Darwin," ya know?
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 03:56 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
We kick about neo Darwinian and Darwinian and , s far as Im concerned, weve really not discussed it a lot. Among the several differences between the two "Schools" are these(to me) important "fly **** in the pepper" issues


You left out what, for me, is one of, if not the, biggest differences, Farmer.

Darwin posited Lamarkian "inheritance of acquired characteristics" as a mechanism for evolution.

Neo-Darwinism strictly forbid any such interaction between organism and environment (Weissman barrier, Crick's Central Dogma, etc.) and embraced, as an axiom, a thoroughly mechanistic theory of strict genetic determinism.

This was all a part of their determination to forever exclude any notion of teleology from evolutionary theory. They were attempting to both (1) emulate physics, as a model for "science," and (2) preclude any and all speculation that "god" might have anything to do with the universe as a whole in general, and with the creation and development of life on earth in particular.

Many, if not most or all, of the relevant theorists were atheistic and some, like Crick, for example, were militantly and fanatically atheistic.
raprap
 
  2  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 07:37 pm
@layman,
Your arguments is leading--morover it strikes me as circular.

e.g.
Quote:
Darwin posited Lamarkian "inheritance of acquired characteristics" as a mechanism for evolution.


In reality Darwin posited Lamark and then demonstrated in the Origin of Species that random (actually chaotic) mutation with selection by niche survival a superior hypothesis. (Later elevated to a theory--AKA the scientific that you disparage as
Quote:
They were attempting to both (1) emulate physics, as a model for "science,"


Then you say
Quote:
This was all a part of their determination to forever exclude any notion of teleology from evolutionary theory.


Actually so did Darwin--teleology inherently implies design with purpose, which to me is a leading to the concept of a 'designer'--

Interestingly IMHO the common teleological example strikes me as a strawman. That is "forks have tines to facilitate human mouths" leads to a question about "chopsticks and human mouths" as chopsticks also provide the same purpose as fork tines. IOW assumption of teleology leads to precluded conclusion.

Rap
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 07:49 pm
@raprap,
Quote:
That is "forks have tines to facilitate human mouths


Actually, I think forks have tines to facilitate stabbing a chunk of meat and holding in place while you run a knifes between the tines to get it chopped down to manageable pieces without getting your hand all greasy and grubby, ya know? Chopsticks can't do that.

Quote:
...demonstrated in the Origin of Species that random (actually chaotic) mutation with selection by niche survival a superior hypothesis.


"Demonstrated?" How did he demonstrate that?

Quote:
Actually so did Darwin--teleology inherently implies design with purpose...


Yeah, and "selection" implies a "selector," eh? Which is, by the way, a "creative force" per the neo-Darwinians.



cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 07:55 pm
@layman,
You wrote,
Quote:
Demonstrated?


We understand you are deaf and dumb when it comes to evolutionary evidence.
Try to get a book by Charles Darwin; read it and understand it.

But we all know you'll never admit to being wrong or stupid.

Do you know why the flu virus changes every year? One guess.

Also, your use of the world "selection" is misused.

In biology, it determines "which types of organisms survives."

You need to go back to school to learn the basics of science, reading and comprehension.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 08:08 pm
@raprap,
Quote:
Darwin posited Lamark and then demonstrated in the Origin of Species that random (actually chaotic) mutation with selection by niche survival a superior hypothesis.


Uhh, actually he went on to form his speculative Pangenesis theory:

Quote:
How did this natural variation arise? Darwin considered this of major importance and hence used the Lamarckian theory of the inherited effects of organ use and disuse throughout his work. Thus, in 1868 he published his detailed theory ‘Pangenesis’ to explain the origin of genetic variations....

Pangenesis was a detailed theory, Lamarckian in nature, intended to explain inheritance of acquired characteristics and the sort of natural variability within species that his natural selection theory required. It was his mechanism of heredity. His position on these crucial issues is not widely known however, and not part of the modern orthodoxy that has demonised Lamarck...

Many neo-Darwinists, particularly in Britain, have been acutely embarrassed by Darwin’s Pangenesis speculations and have, where possible, expunged them from the scientific record.


http://lamarcksevolution.com/evolution-an-introduction/
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Mon 6 Apr, 2015 11:33 pm
Well, we can stop this whole discussion if they can show us some " évidence (french)

But they are too cocky and arrogant to admit they have NONE, ZERO, NADA évidence for (macro) evolution.

They rely too much on their experts and so on, in stead on the évidence , of which there is a huge lack.

But, Of course it is quite a thing to see that you have been lied to all your life,
So, apart from some rare breed, it is too difficult for most to admit that, so they have TONS of rationalizations, and then they don't see the forest through the trees anymore, so to speak.
If they could, they could really see there is NO évidence .

Their Emperor has NO CLOTHES.
0 Replies
 
 

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