132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 12:43 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Im not bailing on you... Im going trout fishing down on the Octoraro Creek


Cool, Farmer, thanks for the head's up. Have a great time!
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 12:43 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:
why don't we have any standard function of porbabilsitic distribution of that?


Good question, but why stop at that? Why don't we have any standard function of porbabilsitic distribution of anything?
Herald
 
  0  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 01:37 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Good question, but why stop at that? Why don't we have any standard function of porbabilsitic distribution of anything?
     ... of anything, that is claiming to be randomness and denies a priori the posswibility of any determinism. Random does not in any way mean 'appearing out of nothing' and 'out of nowhere' and the coming into existence of biocode by 'positive mutations'.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 01:53 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:
the posswibility of any determinism.


Agreed, we could all do without determinisms getting their posswibilities out and sticking them under our noses.

You should stand for election.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 03:10 pm
@izzythepush,
I think it highly porbabilistic, in fact, there is a distict posswibilility that I have been superceded as resident neologist

layman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 03:31 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
I think it highly porbabilistic, in fact, there is a distict posswibilility that I have been superceded as resident neologist


You may be misunderestimating yourself, Neo.
neologist
 
  1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 03:42 pm
@layman,
A distinctulative porbabobility
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 05:59 pm
@layman,
Im back before sunset. Fish were really hungry. It was almost like netting tadpoles. I kept 2 and caught 6 and got bored a bit. I should wait till the areas get fished out. Usually though, EVERYBODY goes on the first day and everybody stands within a 100 feet either side of the road crossing bridge.
I walk about 1/2 mile up the creek and theres nobody (Cept me and some dumass fish)
FBM
 
  1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 06:16 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Herald wrote:
the posswibility of any determinism.


Agreed, we could all do without determinisms getting their posswibilities out and sticking them under our noses.

You should stand for election.


That's unposswible!
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 11:27 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
(Cept me and some dumass fish)


Some people are even more dumber than fishes, ya know? Last week I was out fishin at the lake, when I saw that dumb-ass game warden, Herbert, coming down the road in his state van. Right quick I hid my poles and bait in some bushes, but he got there before I could hide all the fish (which I had in a bucket full of lake water) I had caught.

He said: "What are you doin out here, Layman?" I said: Aww, nuthin. Just catchin a few rays, and ****, ya know?

He said: "You got a fishin license?" I said: Naw, I don't fish.

He said: "That so? Then what's this here bucket a fish?" I said: Those are my pet fish. I just brought them out to give them a little run.

I proceeded to explain to him how, now and again, I would bring my fish from home and turn them loose in the lake so they could see their homeys, and ****, for a spell, then I told him: "Then, when I'm ready to go, I whistle and they all swim up so I can put them in that bucket and haul them back home to their aquarium where I feed them real good."

He said: " Layman, what kind of fool do you think I am?" I said: I dunno, what kind are you, Herbert?

He said: "You think I believe that tall tale?" I said: Believe it or not, I don't care. It's the truth. I just now got them back in the bucket, cause we're ready to head home.

He said; "Show me". I said: Sho nuff, homey, looky here...then I dumped that bucket of fish back into the lake and laid back down.

After a few minutes, he said; "Well?" I said: Well, what?

He said: When are you going to whistle, and call those fish back?

I said: What fish?




The chump.

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 4 Apr, 2015 11:55 pm
@farmerman,
The kind of thing Noble was talking about:

Quote:
Phenotypic plasticity, the capacity of a single genotype to exhibit variable phenotypes in different environments, is common in insects and is often highly adaptive...Plasticity is important because it is an encompassing model to understand life on earth, it can increase fitness, generate novelty, and facilitate evolution...Phenotypic plasticity, through its ecological effects, can facilitate evolutionary change and speciation.

...phenotypic plasticity is universal among living things and derived from the fact that environments vary. These environmental changes, be they temporal, spatial, abiotic, or biotic, are challenging because they can destabilize homeostasis and development, and disrupt the match between an organism’s phenotype and the environment, thereby lowering fitness.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEQQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FAnurag_Agrawal5%2Fpublication%2F228731603_What_is_phenotypic_plasticity_and_why_is_it_important%2Flinks%2F00b7d51ba5a0d028e0000000.pdf&ei=MJkgVf-YOsG3sAWghICIDA&usg=AFQjCNFowdEXtIFzoUP6YfVkSmno7VmL9w&sig2=dLajX0brAz_mpLxQHKbcnA

The strict genetic determinism posited by the modern synthesis axiomatically prohibits such interaction between an organism and environment. This is why Barbara McClintock's findings, for which she eventually received a nobel prize, were brutally rejected.

Quote:
Barbara lectured widely on her research, but her findings were far ahead of their time. Because acceptance of her work met such resistance, she stopped publishing accounts of her research on “jumping genes” after 1953. She felt she risked alienating the scientific mainstream, and in 1973, she wrote: “One must await the right time for conceptual change.” It was only after similar elements were discovered in E. coli many years later, that her work was fully accepted by the scientific community.


http://www.polyploids.com/2011/07/09/paying-homage-to-barbara-mcclintock/

Even though her discoveries were made in the 30's and 40's, she did not receive nobel prize recognition until 1983.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 12:38 am
@layman,
From her 1983 prize acceptance speech:

Quote:
I understand I am here this evening because the maize plant, with which I have worked for many years, revealed a genetic phenomenon that was totally at odds with the dogma of the times, the mid-nineteen forties. Recently, with the general acceptance of this phenomenon, I have been asked, notably by young investigators, just how I felt during the long period when my work was ignored, dismissed, or aroused frustration.

At first, I must admit, I was surprised and then puzzled, as I thought the evidence and the logic sustaining my interpretation of it, were sufficiently revealing. It soon became clear, however, that tacit assumptions - the substance of dogma - served as a barrier to effective communication....

New techniques made it possible to realize that the phenomenon was universal, but this was many years later. In the interim I was not invited to give lectures or seminars, except on rare occasions, or to serve on committees or panels, or to perform other scientists' duties

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1983/mcclintock-speech.html

Blacklisted for questioning dogma---know what I'm sayin, Farmer?
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  0  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:04 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
the possWibility of any determinism.
Forget about the typo - why don't you concentrate on the semantics?

Herald
 
  -1  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:10 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
You should stand for election.
The problem is not such a great joke as you are trying to present it ... and should not be resolved by a typo in any case scenario. The fake theory of the Evilution has to stand up before the realities and to state out on the satellite TVwhether it is deterministic or stochastic ... or is merely 'air under pressure'.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:11 am
@farmerman,
And it's not just phenotypes from the same genotype which have "plasticity." Genotypes themselves can be "plastic" and can undergo "rapid change." For example:

Quote:
It has been shown that one AMF [Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi] can produce genotypically novel offspring with proportions of different nucleotypes.

We hypothesized that (1) AMF respond rapidly to a change of environment (plant host) through changes in the frequency of nucleotypes; (2) genotypically novel offspring exhibit different genetic responses to environmental change than the parent; and (3) genotypically novel offspring exhibit a wide range of phenotypic plasticity to a change of environment....

We conclude that AMF have the ability to rapidly produce variable progeny, increasing their probability to produce offspring with different fitness than their parents and, consequently, their potential adaptability to new environmental conditions.

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v8/n2/abs/ismej2013154a.html

That sounds about as Lamarckian as you can get, to me. No well-trained neo-darwinist could fail to snicker at the mere mention of Lamarcks name, knowing he would get disapproving glances from others if he didn't (nowithstanding the fact that Darwin himself presupposed the validity of the heritability of acquired traits).
FBM
 
  1  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:19 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

izzythepush wrote:
the possWibility of any determinism.
Forget about the typo - why don't you concentrate on the semantics?




The porbabilsities of that are not great.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:21 am
@layman,
Gould wasnt commenting on PE when he did the "Bookkeeping" statement. He was using it in discussion of the fact that he(and many others) believed that genes were not causal, but consequential.

"The climate got cold waay before the Mammoth developed a wooly coat)

I think my understanding in where you seem to be going is today pretty well summarized in mechanisms of Single Nucleotide polymorphic expression of genes (SNP's).

Theres a good deal of study thats been compiled on SNP's and mimetics of related species . its in a series of mimetic butterfly studies and gene expressions .

Im aware of McClintock keeping her "head down" but I think we agree that weve gone beyond that. She was in an era of Mendelian genetics primarily and for the last 30 years or so weve gone into the fuzzy physical chemistry of genomics.

farmerman
 
  2  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:30 am
@farmerman,
As far as Noble , I am pretty certain that he and Jay Gould woulda bought each other drinks and celebrated there confluence of thought.
Gould's call for a new "environmental and non-genetic evolutionary synthesis" [retty much agrees with what Noble seemed to have said.

We staretd a thread several years ago re"Evolution preceeds genomics" or something like that.

Noble has been generously quote mined (Ive looked at a number of citations f his that ere brutally reorganized to sound out that the entire theory of evolution needs to be chucked out (AND INSERTED);;in favor of a more "Design" based thory.

Noble has apparently spit on all his being velcroed to the IDers, when he is saying nothing of the sort.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:30 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:
Forget about the typo


There was way more than one, and I think calling them typos is being extremely generous.

And I don't want to waste my time on the rants of a madman. You're not someone people bother debating with, mocking and ridiculing perhaps, but never debating. You'd need to be taken seriously for that.
farmerman
 
  3  
Sun 5 Apr, 2015 06:46 am
@Herald,
Quote:
1. Fatal system error No.1: The Evolution of the Stars is most probably not causing the apperance of Life in the Universe, otherwise you will have to show the 60 ÷ 70 civillisations that must be existing in theory only in our Galaxy. What about the Universe? Where are they ... and where are we?
-Lets try to solve one problem at a time
Quote:
2. The Evolution should clarify to itself at first, and then to the world, whether it is operating on stochastics or on determinisim. If it operates on stochastics, how does it generate PNA, and after that (all of a suddent and out of nowhere and by reason unknown) changes to DNA ... and why don't we have any standard function of porbabilsitic distribution of that?


why do you consider this as critical to life? recent work repeating the Miller Urey experiment (except using an atmosphere that better epresented the earth during the HADEAN-generated all kind of nucleotides, lipids and pre-biotic molecules
Quote:
3. If it is determinism - who/what is the rulemaker and why Life cannot be created in the lab from scratch (inorganic matter and stochastic processes within some space, entirely insulated from the biosphere)?
. For one, weve only been working on this for about 50 years and the availability of highly accurate and sensitive lab instruments i only about 30 years old. But, think about this, youve presented no information that the development of life (including evolutionary processes) are NOT three or four part steps that interact with the environment.
[/quote] 4. IF the Evolution is really in action, and is making various species by 'positive mutations', why are there species at all - why don't we look like the viruses ... without any distinct species - every new year with a brand new biocode? Why is that not happening?[/quote] see above, it appears that , for sakes of analyses, evolution is probably just adaptation to a changing environment. SEE "Changing Environment"
Quote:
I can tell you how far have we gone with FBM in terms of the Big Bang 'theory', but unfortunately this thread here is exclusively about evolution.
BTW this thread here is trying to suggestologise(SIC) the attitude to the issue, by attaching as 'keyword' mental health to the theme dening evolution with the sole intention to provide infinite competitive advantage to the people that are 'confirming' the Evolution, and to place in utmost uncomfortanle position the opponents. This actually is a glaring example of how some people, who prenet to be the greatest scientists for any age, are missing elementary things, like scientfic integrity, for example.
Was that meant for me?? I never ever aid Im a great scientist. Im just a guy who works a job in science and is now trying to retire. YOU DO often put yourself out there by saying some really unique things, some of which I find totally incomprehensible. So, I really gave up on you many months ago. Right now I asked you a question because youve made an assertion without any facts or evidence (or what most of us consider as evidence).

0 Replies
 
 

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