132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:49 am
@Builder,
Quote:
Every ism is all crap, then. By your own paramaters, you have destroyed the whole gamut of idiosyncratically opinion-based isms. They're all the product of lengthy indocrination, coupled by a close comeraderie with the "bretheren", and a not-so closely-watching heirarchy.


I might. very good then,.

But here is is only about evolutionism.

No evidence, no evolution.

Most evolutionists don't get that.
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:58 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Quote:
.... it is easy to see it is all crap!


Every ism is all crap, then. By your own paramaters, you have destroyed the whole gamut of idiosyncratically opinion-based isms. They're all the product of lengthy indocrination, coupled by a close comeraderie with the "bretheren", and a not-so closely-watching heirarchy.


This may be a truism...
Builder
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 04:05 am
@FBM,
Quote:
This may be a truism...


Or a sales pitch.
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 04:09 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Quote:
This may be a truism...


Or a sales pitch.


I think that's a euphemism. Wink



Sorry. I'll stop now.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 06:55 am
@Quehoniaomath,
YOU don't evolve much, that's for sure... :-)

Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 07:58 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
YOU don't evolve much, that's for sure... :-)


Trying Ad Hominems again? We all know what that means. Wink
Olivier5
 
  3  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 08:55 am
@Quehoniaomath,
I am just curious about your case; find it extreme but also extremely interesting case of 'pan-denialism'. You doubt everything. It's kinda fascinating, in a freaky way.

When is the last time you changed your mind about any of this?
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 09:09 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I am just curious about your case; find it extreme but also extremely interesting case of 'pan-denialism'. You doubt everything. It's kinda fascinating, in a freaky way.

When is the last time you changed your mind about any of this?


It is getting worse. Wink
Funny to see that you can't comprehend me.

Btw I am only denying if there is ground for denying.
And there is a lot of ground for denying.

You have no idea the scale is we are being lied to.

You really think I do this for my own amusement? If so, that is hilarious.



sonichell
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 02:53 pm
@JimmyJ,
I am agnostic. you asked why people don't "believe" in evolution but they can't debate the validity of evolution, that is duplicity. you say the evidence speaks for itself yet no evidence is every presented for different types of animals mutating into other types. Obviously species in isolation develop sub-species, no one "denies" that. If you understand science, you would know that theories always change. That is the point, darwin's theory of natural selection was changed to add mutation, because of the time problem and dna. Scientist use to believe in abiogenesis, that life came from non living matter. Like magots came from dead meat.lol. My favorite part of evolution is that it starts after the first cell is here. Why because darwin's simple cell turns out has more than 1 million base pairs of amino acids(that only come from living things). A few single cell organisms have around 200 thousand base pairs. So the probability of you winning the lottery 200k times in a row has a better chance of happening. so the earth is 4.5 billion years old, 500 million years ago we have the cambrian explosion. The fossil record shows all species maintain their form for millions of years. The horseshoe crab is 500 million years old, and many other "living fossils" have changed little. If evolution is true than 99.9% of species are extinct because thousands of intermediate specieces would have to fill the gaps between two different species. the fossil record does not show this, there are between 1-10 million species alive today, so 10 million is .01% of what? a new species every year for over a trillion year? Ohh and trillions of mutations in order, with the mutant taking over the entire species. No beneficial mutation has been discovered, no intermidiate fossil has been found even though 99.9% of extint species are intermediate. you shouldn't believe any theory. You should strive to learn the truth. The greater our knowledge increases the greater our ignorance unfolds. Sorry for typos, on mobile.


Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 02:56 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Quote:
Btw I am only denying if there is ground for denying.
And there is a lot of ground for denying.

There is ALWAYS some ground to deny; that's the beauty of it. Some skeptics doubt that they themselves exist... The sky is the limit.
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 02:57 pm
@Olivier5,
I think Quahog demonstrates G Vailants " level 1" defense mechanism. "Pathological denial"
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:03 pm
@sonichell,
Quote:
the fossil record does not show this
The fossil record displays a fairly good record of the development and evolutionary pth of many phyla and classes of life, plants and animals. You seem to want to only call it valid if and only if every spexies is accounted for. Well, the fossil record is a record of a GEOLOGIC process, not a biological one. Fossils can only be formed if conditions are favorable, so only seeing a a moderate number of transitional forms (not to mention PRECISE order of appearance in the fossil record) is not a means of denial that the fossil record is invalid, merely incomplete. WE DO HAVE SOME HUMDINGERS OF TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS THOUGH.

Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:05 pm
@farmerman,
The guy is a text book case of denialism. Amazing.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:12 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
There is ALWAYS some ground to deny; that's the beauty of it. Some skeptics doubt that they themselves exist... The sky is the limit.


Some ground???

I am having a laugh now!


georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:18 pm
@sonichell,
I agree with you that details of Darwin's theory are changing more or less continuously based on new discoveries and new developmenst, several of which you noted in your post. Beyond that there still remain numerous large gaps in our record of the evolution of extant species, prominently including mankind. I don't think that in any way diminishes the essential finding of Darwin that species over time adapt to their changing environments through natural selection. Some local and large area aspects of the environment change rapidly accelerating the process for some affected species and some change more slowly. Some species may find themselves adapted to some areas of the environment for a much longer time. Natural selection, after all, depends on a host of factors that vary from place to place, species to species and over time as well. It also depends a great deal on geologiucal process as farmernam noted. Finally there is nothing in the theory of evolution that excludes external events (asteroid impacts; aliens from outer space or even god from intervening in the process.) Evolution occurs: however the theory doesn't compel us to conclude, a priori, that nothing else ever occurs to alter life forms.

I've given up on Quehon ... He appears to have a much greater appetite for expressing his sometimes ill-considered doubts and opinions than expanding his knowledge and understanding, and to significantly underestimate his ignorance of the subject.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:20 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Yes, there is always some reason to doubt, and about all things. Maybe the whole world is just an illusion of our senses, like in The Matrix, and therefore some doubt that the world as we see it exists. Others even doubt that they themselves exist as a 'self'... They think they are an illusion... Welcome to Doubters Without Borders.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 03:57 pm
@farmerman,
Many people seem to ignore the fact that all living things eventually die, and the process of deterioration depends on its environment - which continually changes. Scientists can only use what's available to provide the best theory based on current knowledge.

For all those skeptics, it's up to them to provide their challenge by providing their theory against what's available, and how they arrived at their conclusion.

0 Replies
 
sonichell
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 05:03 pm
@farmerman,
I did not say the fossil record is invalid. If anything is invalid its the mutation theory. The point I was trying to make about the fossil record is the mathamatical probability that 99% of extinct species are transistional yet we keep finding the 1% of "stable" species over and over. Darwin was an actual scientist, by that i mean he questioned his theory best. That is why he said if in 100 years we don't find transitional fossils he is wrong. Similarities between different species is not proof of evolution, it is only proof that we are all carbon based life forms. I never found a scientist that said their are transitional fossils but people who were taught evolution in school always claim it. So please tell me your best humdinger of a transitional fossil.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 05:18 pm
@sonichell,
1% STABLE and 99% not stable. Wow, where did you get your education?

It's not only the fossil records that proves transition; it's DNA.

From Wiki. NOTE: People looking to find answers to transitional evolution must overlook all of the religious based articles (they are based on creationism).
Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Evolutionary biology
Evidence of common descent of living things has been discovered by scientists working in a variety of fields over many years. This evidence has demonstrated and verified the occurrence of evolution and provided a wealth of information on the natural processes by which the variety and diversity of life on Earth developed. This evidence supports the modern evolutionary synthesis, the current scientific theory that explains how and why life changes over time. Evolutionary biologists document evidence of common descent: making testable predictions, testing hypotheses, and developing theories that illustrate and describe its causes.
Comparison of the DNA genetic sequences of organisms has revealed that organisms that are phylogenetically close have a higher degree of DNA sequence similarity than organisms that are phylogenetically distant. Further evidence for common descent comes from genetic detritus such as pseudogenes, regions of DNA that are orthologous to a gene in a related organism, but are no longer active and appear to be undergoing a steady process of degeneration from cumulative mutations.
Fossils are important for estimating when various lineages developed in geologic time. As fossilization is an uncommon occurrence, usually requiring hard body parts and death near a site where sediments are being deposited, the fossil record only provides sparse and intermittent information about the evolution of life. Evidence of organisms prior to the development of hard body parts such as shells, bones and teeth is especially scarce, but exists in the form of ancient microfossils, as well as impressions of various soft-bodied organisms. The comparative study of the anatomy of groups of animals shows structural features that are fundamentally similar or homologous, demonstrating phylogenetic and ancestral relationships with other organisms, most especially when compared with fossils of ancient extinct organisms.
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 17 Nov, 2014 08:10 pm
@sonichell,
Im an earth scientist who actually uses many transitional form fossils in my daily work to locate O/G units. Specific fossils of things like conodonts, foraminiferans and gastropods are "tools" for modern oil exploration.
One of my favorite fossil transitional forms is Tiktaalik Rosaea

>Its found in the units of the Devonian below where amphibians are found, and they re found in the same unit which is ABOVE the layers that contain earlier lobe-finned fish Eustenopteron . Here we have an earlier fish species with features showing a trend toward becoming a lnd dweller, Then we have Tiktaalik, just above , in the later mid Devonian. Tiktaalik shows a great advance to "amphibian state. It had "a hand-like " array of bones on its fore and rear fins that enabled it to "walk on the stream bottom. It hd a large head tht was gearing to eyes that were more atop the skull and aNECK so that it could actually move its head about. It had a skull more like n amphibian . It had a set of vomerine teeth like amphibians but it was a fish. Lying above the Tiktaalik layer of Devoian middle units lie fossils of Icthyoostegans which are true amphibians, yet stil retaining the Tiktalik -like skull.

The neat thing about these transitional forms wre where they were found and how the geologists went out hunting for them.
The two geologists that went looking , picked out thir field sites based upon the known geology. They needed to be in fluvial deposists of stream seiments from the mid-Devonian.
The reason was that the last fish fossils they had were from lower Devonian and were found in various deposists of that age. The amphibians cam from the upper MIDDLE Devonian. SO the fossil hunters , if they were right, should find the TRANSITIONAL fossil in the sediments of thelower or middle MIDDLE DEVONIAN. SO they chose Ellsmere Island to hunt.

Three years later. they hit their find and the scientific world has been appraised of this transitional form by the two scientists who found it.
(They are Drs Neil Shubin and Ted Daeschler).

Quote:
Similarities between different species is not proof of evolution
We don't hunt for "proof". We hunt for evidence nd we conclude.
If we find three fossils from 3 different sequential geologic times, each showing a "stairway" feature that gets preserved in the third (UPPER) level fossil. Its hard to deny the evidence for a close heritable relationship among these fossils.

Evolution (BTW) is NOT a strait line event where we see only lockstep forms that go from A to (N) in form. We usually find all sorts of crazy variants of forms that each may have one or two traits that get transferred on to later generations . Some forms live but most go extinct. Heritability of traits that confer a heritable advantage for successful living within any specific environment will be selected FOR, and the rest go extinct. Something like dinosaurs and mammals evolved from early forms beginning in the Permian. The dinosaurs, continued to evolve and be the "pinnacle species" until they disappeared. They left their ossils and parent/daughter forms throughout the Triassic/Jurssic and Cretceous. Several forms of the "ceratopsian" herbivores can be seen to show really good transitional forms from all the thousands of fossils of these dinosaurs. (I think a visit to the "Treatise on Vertebrate Paleontology" would knock your socks off (IF) you truly have an open inquisitive mind. If Not, If you are merely looking at trying to support a belief in some other explanation (Ill not discuss it here), then, Id suggest that you don't bother because you will deny what the data and evidence shows.

 

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