132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
Herald
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 02:41 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
You have some serious misconceptions about BB Theory. It's about the early evolution of the universe.
     Obviously - early evolution suggests there has to be there late evolution as well. Do you claim that at present there is no Big Bang in operation anywhere, and that the evolution of the stars may continue without or without the Big Bang on auto-pilot, controlled by stochastics?
FBM wrote:
Observed expansion is what led to the hypothesis, further observations and necessary inferences (mathematical calculations) based on those observations.
     The math equations are logical model (of inference and representation after appropriate physical interpretation). Any model of representation is inaccurate (by various reasons, incl. misinterpretation of previous inferences) ... and the models that are based on fake or missing or mind-blowing assumptions are the most inaccurate of all.
FBM wrote:
No, let's not accept any such thing, because it's nonsense. The BB hasn't expanded, the universe has.
     ... and when it has stopped expanding, also how and why?
FBM wrote:
Nothing has "arrived here."
     This is definitely not true. The radio telescope detects EM signals coming from outer space and the red shift in the light spectrum coming from the outermost parts of the Universe is Evidence No.1 and sole for the existence of the Big Bang ... as an event, or call it as you wish. Nobody has ever seen anything of the Big Bang - how it looks like, how much time it will need to expand from zero-D space into 3-D Universe through the 11-D Hyperspace, where has it gotten all that energy from (to create the Universe incl. its mass and energy respectively), etc. All you have is red shift in the light spectrum ... and nothing else - and you cannot even tell whether it is due to the long distance of light travelling throughout the Universe or retro change in the spectral analysis of the elements at the launching of the Universe (if it has been created at all and not has always existed, for example), or due to something else. Big Bang is nothing but a virtual reality - not less virtual than God, for example.
FBM wrote:
Dude. Pay attention. The BB was an event.
      ... that has created (that nobody has ever proved) the Universe out of the Hyperspace (the existence of which is unverifiable) and out of the dark energy, where in astrophysics 'dark' means unknown as structure, source and properties. What kind of an event is that, which can make impossible things ... out of unknowable assumptions?
FBM wrote:
You're conflating it with the universe as a whole.
     I am not combining it with anything - it is immanent part of the astrophysics and of anything that we will ever get to know about the Universe.
FBM wrote:
or you're disingenuously twisting words so that you can slip your Bronze Age myth in there.
     You cannot slip my 'Bronze Age myth' in the 'Scientific Age myth' ... and BTW how did you come to know that the Bronze Age Myth is mine? I am agnostic.
FBM wrote:
But the fact remains that you're trying to treat the BB as if it were an entity, which the theory doesn't.
     The theory claims that the BB is the beginning of all beginnings.
FBM wrote:
The way you keep putting scare quotes around the word 'theory' seriously suggests that you don't know the meaning of the word
      ... or alternatively this may mean that something presented as a theory is inconsistent as a logical structure (we are not talking about truth of representation of the physical world yet). When something is inconsistent as a logical structure (full of contradictions with itself and the rest of the world) a not entirely bad idea is to put it in questions marks - just in case.
FBM wrote:
Speak for yourself, hoss. You have no way of knowing what I know and don't know. You don't have access to my mind.
     I am not talking about you - the talk is about the data from the radio telescope ... that you are even unable to read let alone to make some interpretations.
FBM wrote:
As for the "huge gaps" of information, that's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever heard it
     The missing information in our understanding of the world is for the first time set as a problem by the philosophical school of agnosticism. By Def.: Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of God, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable.
      O.K.: Is Hyperspace metaphysics or it is a routine part of the conventional astrophysics? You and people like you are claiming that you know everything about the Hyperspace, and also about the sources of Dark Energy that the Big Bang has been using - it is not me.
FBM wrote:
I'm not sure if it's even possible to have a bigger gap in your god theory, since there's no evidence whatsoever to support it.
     The theory that information might have been lost in the Universe is not mine - this issue is set forth by S. Hawking in connection with math inferences in the theory of the Black Holes. Most of the people don't pay any attention to inferences like that ... and not few are those that cannot even understand what it might mean.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:15 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Usually yes but not in the case of Queho, who is a 'special' evolution denier in the sense that he is not religious. I see him as the hyper-skeptic par excellence, a mega-giga-skeptic who doubts EVERYTHING THAT IS CONSENSUAL IN HIS SOCIETY, starting with anything you learn at school (a result of academic failure?).


the ONLY question has to be , is it true or not, not some Ad Hominims.
You are right, I am non religious and doubt indeed everything that is consensus.
why ? Because that everyone thinks it, doesn´t make it true of course! But most people do think that. It is the common fallacy of popularity.
I am only after truth. And I can tell you, this world is filled till the top with lies.
I am indeed here to challenge the assumptions most people have.
We take to much for granted.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It's primarily religious' belief that puts fear into their psyche. That's the reason why they find every excuse in trying to deny evolution. As we have seen, there's plenty of similar thinking 'nuts' out there that pushes their creationist persuasion. They just can't answer one simple question; prove your god exists.


if this is true there wouln´t be no non/creationists denying evolution.
There are just ´normal scientists rejecting evolution.
So, your arguments hold no ground whatsover.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:21 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Thanks, that's very cool. But it only makes the case of Queho mentioning it more typical of a denier blinded to facts. He said he read Milton's book which you say disagrees with the classic neo-darwinian MECHANISMS of evolution BUT AGREES WITH EVOLUTION ITSELF. He reads that book (?) and concludes that the book disagrees with evolution... Disingenuous at worse, or at best totally blinded to facts. Unable to SEE them even...


Yes, I have read that also and it surprised me because of all the content in his book which really is rejecting Darwinist Evolution. And righlty so.
Maybe read the book.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:22 am
Saying that red shift is the proof of the Biggie Bangie is of course a logical fallacy! Easy to make though, I admit.

Most scientists don´t even see how conflicted their extremely stupid theories are!

FBM
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:29 am
@Herald,
Quote:
Obviously - early evolution suggests there has to be there late evolution as well. Do you claim that at present there is no Big Bang in operation anywhere, and that the evolution of the stars may continue without or without the Big Bang on auto-pilot, controlled by stochastics?


It doesn't matter what it implies. BB Theory is about an event in the early universe. BB Not Equal Universe. The premise that there might be a BB out there somewhere "in operation" is absurd from its foundations.

Quote:
Any model of representation is inaccurate (by various reasons, incl. misinterpretation of previous inferences) ... and the models that are based on fake or missing or mind-blowing assumptions are the most inaccurate of all.


Nobody claims that current cosmology is final or absolute. Theists do that sort of thing, not scientists. At least the science is evidence-based instead of blind faith-based. Talk about "fake," "missing," and "mind-blowing" assumptions, religions take the cake there, pal. Wink

Quote:
... and when it has stopped expanding, also how and why?


You don't seem to be current on this topic. Not only has it not stopped expanding, it's doing so at an accelerating rate: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/univacc.html

Quote:
This is definitely not true. The radio telescope detects EM signals coming from outer space and...


Now you're definitely being disingenuous. The statement to which I replied was, "...the events that are observed along the 'edges' of the visible Universe are Big Bang in action and 'in real time' - what has arrived here 13.7 Bya later." You seem to have a mental model in which "here" existed when the BB happened, and it has taken 13.7 billion years for its effects to arrive "here." There was no "here" before the BB. Space-time came into existence at that point. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
... that has created (that nobody has ever proved) the Universe out of the Hyperspace (the existence of which is unverifiable) and out of the dark energy, where in astrophysics 'dark' means unknown as structure, source and properties. What kind of an event is that, which can make impossible things ... out of unknowable assumptions?


Wow. You really don't understand it, do you? The model does not have the BB happening inside some hyperspace, using dark energy or anything else. You should really try to get a grasp of the basics before taking on such a topic.

Quote:
I am not combining it with anything...


Double-check the word I actually used.

Quote:
You cannot slip my 'Bronze Age myth' in the 'Scientific Age myth' ... and BTW how did you come to know that the Bronze Age Myth is mine? I am agnostic.


Science is evidence-based, therefore it isn't a myth. Religions are faith-based and devoid of supporting evidence, therefore they're myths. And now you're changing yourself into an agnostic? Who was it that posted earlier, "...God is omnipresent, and so is the Big Bang (it can operate everywhere throughout the physical & metaphysical world); God is omnipotent..." Please pay attention to the cards you've already played.

Quote:
You and people like you are claiming that you know everything about the Hyperspace, and also about the sources of Dark Energy that the Big Bang has been using - it is not me.


By all means, quote an example of me claiming anything of the sort.

Quote:
The theory that information might have been lost in the Universe is not mine - this issue is set forth by S. Hawking...


Which doesn't have the slightest thing to do with what I said. Hand-waving word salad obfuscation. You're trying to slip your Bronze Age god-theory into the gaps in science, but considering that there's absolutely zero evidence for your god, you're condemning your own claim as being worse than those of science. Laughing
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 04:36 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Science is evidence-based


Where the hell did you ever get that idea????

It is lie after lie after lie, but of course it is blasphemie if one says that!

But it is!! lie after..

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 06:08 am
My argument re Richard Milton's book is that, if Quahog thinks that Milton refutes evolution, hed better get someone to translate for him.
My reading has been based upon Milton's flaws in several areas of which he seems to be ignorant (hugely so). His discussions of the fossil record are old, very old , stuff. It was kind of laughable to try to support an argument that attempts to draw in all the areas of evidence that are NOT broken.
His argument is with neo Darwinism. PERIOD. Hes not denying evolution as a process, he, instead tries to pose some different areas of consideration that I, cant deny need some consideration and study.

Maybe Darwinian evolution isn't the be'all model weve assigned it. In mylife time Ive seen that several of the cornerstones of Darwinism have been individually challenged and revised. Gould summarized several of these areas in his last book in 2001 9just before he died).

SCience teaches us to hold on loosely and stop fighting past the limits of our knowledge. I think that's still a great idea.

However, reading comprehension should NOT be based upon ones religious beliefs. (Belief that evolution does NOT occur is as religious a belief as is a"heels-dug-in" belief in Darwinian evolution when some of its tenets are being disproved)
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 06:20 am
@farmerman,
I will lament over Milton in the lamentations of the afflicted
My Garments shall be woven of sighs & heart broken lamentations
The misery of unhappy Families shall be drawn out into its border
Wrought with the needle with dire sufferings poverty pain & woe
Along the rocky Island & thence throughout the whole Earth
There shall be the sick Father & his starving Family!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 07:04 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Look, we have a super-competent astronomer with us! He knows better than the rest of them... and he also knows better than biologists and mathematicians and climatologists and and and...

Wow... you discovered that the entirety of modern science is wrong, and you did it all by yourself with your little grey cells. Congrats!

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 07:07 am
@farmerman,
I agree and find it significant that the guy managed to misunderstand a whole book. What are the chance he will understand any of us?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 07:46 am
@Quehoniaomath,
Quote:
Maybe read the book.

I say YOU should read it again. Pay attention this time.
Herald
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 08:49 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
It doesn't matter what it implies. BB Theory is about an event in the early universe.
     Where is the evidence for that 'event' (except for the red shift in the light spectrum, which is actually weak evidence, for it is an interpretation of some collateral phenomenon)? Where have you proved so far that an explosion can create 3-D space out of zero-D space within a Hyperspace? BTW can you draw the graphic of how an 11-D Hyperspace would look like? Do you know what I think on the issue - that you are not able to represent even a 4-D space on a sheet of paper
FBM wrote:
BB Not Equal Universe.
     The red shift in the light spectrum is part of the physical Universe, hence the Big Bang absolutely naturally becomes immanent part of the physical Universe.
     O.K. can you tell which part of the red shift in the light spectrum is Big Bang and which is simply distorted light ... by some reasons unknown.
FBM wrote:
The premise that there might be a BB out there somewhere "in operation" is absurd from its foundations
     Hence you don't know what evolution (incl. evolution of the stars) is: it is a process, it is not an event.
FBM wrote:
Nobody claims that current cosmology is final or absolute. Theists do that sort of thing, not scientists.
     On the contrary - the scientific apologetics of BB claims that the Big Bang theory is truth of the last resort and in capacity of being so it does not need any assumptions and/or justification. It is simply axiomatically postulated ... and everybody who tries to dispute its validity and to verify its truth value is ... how was there: stupid, ignorant, and retard ... by default .
FBM wrote:
At least the science is evidence-based instead of blind faith-based.
     Which science are you talking about? Exactly the science that deals with the Big Bang is much more belief than science.
FBM wrote:
Talk about "fake," "missing," and "mind-blowing" assumptions, religions take the cake there.
     Forget about religion - tell us what do you know about the Hyperspace, for example ... and from where ... and how can you verify any claims related to it.
FBM wrote:
You don't seem to be current on this topic. Not only has it not stopped expanding, it's doing so at an accelerating rate.
      ... and what is that supposed to mean? Let's see: an Universe that has been formed at infinite speed (infinit rate of expansion) continues expanding at an accelerating speed. What is the physical interpretation of that: you have infinite rate of expansion, which is accelerating continuously ... in the past 4.73 Bya. How much is the rate of expanding of the Universe right now?
FBM wrote:
The statement to which I replied was, "...the events that are observed along the 'edges' of the visible Universe are Big Bang in action and 'in real time' - what has arrived here 13.7 Bya later." You seem to have a mental model in which "here" existed when the BB happened, and it has taken 13.7 billion years for its effects to arrive "here."
     It is not the Big Bang arriving here, it is the light from the objects that have been 'created' by the Big Bang along the 'edges' of the Universe.
     Why don't you confess that you don't have anything else but pure light. Any information that you infer about any space objects is based on the light emitted from them so many years ago, as their distance in light years is (if the BB theory is a valid representation of the world).
FBM wrote:
Wow. You really don't understand it, do you? The model does not have the BB happening inside some hyperspace, using dark energy or anything else. You should really try to get a grasp of the basics before taking on such a topic.
     Forget about me. Tell us from where the Big Bang has acquired all that energy E = M.c^2 + Eu + Ec, where M is the mass of the Universe, c is the speed of light in vacuum, Eu is the energy of the Universe (light, heat, etc.), and Ec is the energy needed to synthesize a 3D space out of zero-D space within some Hyperspace (no matter how it might look like).
FBM
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 09:05 am
@Herald,
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/535917_4688307301380_2905972891769669721_n.jpg

Educate yourself. It's not my job. I've got my own university students to educate. If you're willing to match your exorbitant demands for empirical evidence and necessary inference in defense of the tentative and ongoing scientific position with equally challenging demands for empirical evidence and necessary inference in defense of your supernatural god-claim, then let's go evidence-for-evidence. I've already provided links to evidence for the scientific position, which you carefully ignored/elided from your subsequent posts. So. What is your evidence for the existence of your god? Show me something. Something solid that can be tested. Got anything? Anything at all?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 10:39 am
@FBM,
That's the ticket! They can't even provide one evidence for their god, and they keep demanding more evidence for science and evolution. How they are unable to see their own idiocy is fascinating! They've lost their ability at logic, common sense, and reality. They live in another hemisphere where logic doesn't exist.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 11:40 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I say YOU should read it again. Pay attention this time.


Ah, trying the AH's now? Well I have the book here and read it at least 5 times.
Have you?

Why not?

Oh and well, yes, evolution is obsolete, just look at all the signs.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 11:46 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Educate yourself. It's not my job. I've got my own university students to educate. If you're willing to match your exorbitant demands for empirical evidence and necessary inference in defense of the tentative and ongoing scientific position with equally challenging demands for empirical evidence and necessary inference in defense of your supernatural god-claim, then let's go evidence-for-evidence. I've already provided links to evidence for the scientific position, which you carefully ignored/elided from your subsequent posts. So. What is your evidence for the existence of your god? Show me something. Something solid that can be tested. Got anything? Anything at all?


Do you mate? Got anything at all? Show us!!!

And are you know implying you work at a university??????
Actually I don't believe that at all!!!!!!!!
Prove it! You didn'do that by your postings!

and if you 'educate', the please tell me why you INDOCTRINATE those pooor students with the evolution shite?

Of course having a job doesn't play any role here, does it? Wink

Of course it does! Yor smart enough to remember things but dumb enough to
go with the system.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 12:55 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Who needs to read a book 5 times?

So do you agree with Milton that earth is much younger than 4.5 bl yrs?
parados
 
  1  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 01:05 pm
@georgeob1,
I was trying to make it simple for Herald. Red shift is observed everywhere without needing to be in a center of the universe.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Sat 15 Nov, 2014 01:11 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Who needs to read a book 5 times?


I read all my non-fiction books more then 5 times! Try it and you will discover something.Wink


Quote:
So do you agree with Milton that earth is much younger than 4.5 bl yrs?


Nice try, but that is NOT what he wrote!
 

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