0
   

Attention: John McCain is doing meet the press right now!

 
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 08:00 pm
CNBC in my area. Just thought some folks might be interested.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,873 • Replies: 28
No top replies

 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 08:05 pm
A Right Wing Lacky
How Many Must Die to Achieve an Exit with Honor?
The Real Lessons of Vietnam
By DAVE LINDORFF

Quote:
No one could ever accuse our elected leaders, whether in the White House or in Congress, of being scholars and intellectuals, but when such people start prattling on about the "lessons of Vietnam," it becomes even clearer that we're talking here about people who would have flunked their high school history tests.

Take Pennsylvania's junior Republican Senator Rick Santorum. One lesson of Vietnam which he says we should be applying now to the mounting crisis in Iraq is that "we shouldn't let politicians decide how to fight a war; we should let the war fighters fight the war."

Santorum, who like many a right-wing militarist, ducked military service himself as a young draft-age man during the Indochina conflict, clearly doesn't know or has conveniently forgotten that the top brass during the Vietnam War, like Gen. Westmoreland and Gen. Abrams, consistently and intentionally misled the civilian leadership in Washington about the progress of the war. Unwilling to admit that they were losing, they lied about enemy "body counts" (as they are doing again now in Iraq by never separating civilian deaths from deaths of Iraqi combatants and by continuing to pretend that the U.S. in Iraq is fighting Baathist "die-hards" and "terrorists," not Iraqi nationalists), kept claiming that they could win if they just had more troops, and argued for widening the war, first to the North and then into Cambodia and Laos. Heck, if the military had had its way in Indochina, the whole place would have been nuked.

Arizona's Sen. John McCain, who unlike Santorum, did fight in Vietnam, and who spent five years in a North Vietnamese prison of war camp, also misstates the "lesson" of Vietnam. In his case, he says Iraq is not like Vietnam because in Iraq "we have the capability militarily and politically to prevail."

First of all, McCain is forgetting that this is exactly what the hawks?-civilian and military?-always said about Vietnam! One version popular back in the late 1960s and early ?'70s, and still dredged up by die-hard defenders of that war, had it that we had the military ability to prevail but the damned politicians kept making the military fight with one hand tied behind its back (a ludicrous claim, given that the U.S. poured more weaponry into Vietnam than it used in the entire Second World War, and that with one hand behind its back it killed over two million Indochinese and turned much of the country into a moonscape of craters and defoliated lands). The other version was that we could have won militarily, but our host, the South Vietnamese government, was just too weak and corrupt to allow us to win.

The truth, of course, is that the "host government" as in Iraq, was a sham creation of the U.S., and that the U.S. was simply whipped in Vietnam, militarily and politically. The reason the Vietnamese won was not, as McCain suggests, because they had "big power" backing from the Soviet Union and China (backing that was always in fact half-hearted at best and never crucial), but because the Vietnamese people were fighting for their country and had been for half a century.

McCain's argument that somehow Iraq is different?-that because it has no superpower backing, and no neighboring country sanctuary, America can win this one--actually sounds lifted right out of a 1970 political debate.

Iraq's resisistance may not have superpower backing, but it has much of the Arab and Islamic world supporting it, which may actually be more substantive backing than Vietnam ever got from its Communist "friends." And as for sanctuary, how different are the porous borders of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran and Jordan from those of Laos and Cambodia?

McCain's claim that America can "win" in Iraq actually sounds frighteningly and depressingly like the claims by cheerleaders of America's war in Indochina over the years that America could win there. Increasingly it is becoming clear that winning in Iraq means the same thing it meant in Vietnam: killing and cowing the people of the country into submission.
McCain and Santorum also fail to mention another very real "lesson of Vietnam" which should be relevant to the current war in which the U.S. military finds itself increasingly mired. That is the lack of support of the war effort back home. After the Vietnam War, a common refrain was that never again should America get itself involved in a conflict without the clear support of the American public. This lesson was jettisoned by the Bush gang from day one when they began a campaign of deception to convince Congress to authorize an invasion of Iraq. By using lies, exaggeration and deception to achieve the goal of an invasion, they ensured that the American public would never back the war, especially if and when it began to go badly, as it is now doing.

So here we are back again to 1968, when the Tet Offensive first made it apparent to the American public that the war could not be won. The new Shite offensive in Iraq is making the same point to a new generation of Americans. It doesn't matter if the U.S. military, by sheer power of its 21st Century weaponry, can defeat the 19th Century fighters of Iraq's insurgency. This current uprising across much of Iraq has made it clear that the U.S. has already lost the war.

While we're talking about similarities between 1968 and 2004, we should also recall the unfortunate parallelism of the dispiriting presidential campaigns and the similar lack of any real anti-war alternative. In 1968, we had Democratic Vice-President Hubert Humphrey, who had knocked out genuine anti-war candidate Eugene McCarthy in the primaries, running on a platform of support for Lyndon Johnson's still escalating war, and Republican Richard Nixon, touting his deceptive "secret plan" for "peace with honor"?-a secret plan that in fact saw the war and the killing expand dramatically before leading to an ultimate U.S. defeat. This election year, we have Bush the incumbent defending his war, and Democrat John Kerry, who won his party's nomination by defeating anti-war candidate Howard Dean, also supporting continued American war against and occupation of Iraq. Kerry, meanwhile, a Vietnam Veteran who once condemned the U.S. war in Indochina as both criminal and hopeless, seems now to think that the lesson of Vietnam is that the U.S. needs to get the U.N. to provide a fig-leaf of international cover for its indecent imperialist aggression?-as if Iraqi's and the rest of the world won't know who's really firing off the deadly ordnance.

The only question left, as in Vietnam in 1968, is how many U.S. and Iraqi lives will have to be extinguished before President Bush, or perhaps President Kerry, can sneak off mumbling "peace with honor."

Of course, after that finally happens, we can expect to have to endure people like McCain, Santorum, Bush and Kerry continue to claim that we "could have won" if only the politicians had let our brilliant military leaders have their way, if only we'd sent in more troops, if only those treasonous war critics hadn't sapped America's will, if only we'd brought in the U.N.…etc., etc.

The real lesson of Vietnam: nobody seems to learn anything in Washington.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 08:06 pm
Didn't he issue a statement to the press today:
"No No NO, I am not going to leave the Republican party."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 08:41 pm
Sofia wrote:
Didn't he issue a statement to the press today:
"No No NO, I am not going to leave the Republican party."
Well, he just said it again and made it very clear to everyone that he would never vote for, let alone run with Kerry. I think I just watched the next president of the United States (2008).

Ps Too lazy to start a thread Pist?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 09:46 pm
Quote:
I think I just watched the next president of the United States (2008).

Surely, you don't seriously believe that McCain would be supported by the present RNC?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 11:14 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
I think I just watched the next president of the United States (2008).

Surely, you don't seriously believe that McCain would be supported by the present RNC?
Yep. If he's the guy most likely to win... I think he'll get the backing. Who said "politics make strange bedfellows"?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 12:46 am
Well how about that. I just posted to another thread that McCain is a man of conviction but is far too liberal to gain much traction with the mainstream GOP. Maybe he is coming around. I hope he is.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 12:53 am
McCain is liberal? Shocked
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 01:33 am
He has been pro taxes, anti-tax cuts, pro base closures though overall strong on defense, pro choice, pro affirmative action, and preferred the Democrats versions of campaign finance reform to that proposed by the GOP.

Yes, McCain is no liberal democrat. He's a good liberal Republican.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 09:40 am
occam

I doubt that you have this right, though you may. But I suspect that his ideas on campaign finance and on right to choose, and his general independence and integrity, will make him exactly the sort of candidate that two powerful factions within the party would make McCain EXACTLY the sort of candidate they least want.

I'll note that, as you know, I consider the present president to be the least qualified and least capable person to hold that office that I've seen in my lifetime, and perhaps ever. But it is his relationship to these two groups above which made him a candidate to forward.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 09:57 am
I hear you Blatham and you may well be right. I dissent because McCain seems so credible compared to the incumbent, Kerry and frankly every other candidate who threw their hat in the race this year. I expect the democrats to put up a better fight in 08. (Kerry, IMHO, won the right to be the guy who loses to Bush.) Also, during the Rupert interview, McCain was clearly kissing extra Republican ass, including Bush's, which seemed a bit strategic.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 10:13 am
Two interesting points were made...

McCain let Russert list and dwell a moment on all those points where he's clearly opposed to the president's conservative stance (enviro., abortion, etc.), and McCain said that he disliked the pork added to those spending bills. <Did he really say 3,000 additions to the last defense spending bill?>

I would probably have missed this show if I hadn't seen this post, so thanks very much, OBill, for posting. I like John McCain. I don't know if I would vote for him, but he has always seemed to be a more "real" person than most other candidates. Too bad about those chipmunk cheeks.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 10:13 am
occom

I truly don't believe that McCain's 'credibility' (and I too think that word is an accurate descriptor of the man) will serve him well in the Republican party as it is presently constituted, though I dearly wish that were the important factor.

I didn't hear the interview, but I too have been querulous regarding a certain degree of ass kissing. I would guess it might be party loyalty (which I think his weakest characteristic, if it is a shallow loyalty) or it might be a deeper loyalty to the values and principles that his party used to stand for, and which he seeks to safeguard against those present forces I've alluded to above.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 10:17 am
Yep, Blatham, conservative Republicans strive to be incredible. Smile
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 10:23 am
And success is within their grasp
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 10:48 am
Piffka wrote:
Did he really say 3,000 additions to the last defense spending bill?
Nope, he was talking about the highway bill and used bridges to nowhere in Alaska as an example.

Before McCain, Rupert interviewed the ambassador in Iraq who describes the opposition to democracy as being numbered in the thousands. He stated poll after poll shows 90% of Iraqi's are behind the effort to bring democracy... But some are still afraid we won't finish the job, so are reluctant openly admit it for fear of revenge if we don't.

I agree with him that we must convince the Iraqi people that we will not abandon them. I think we should be going after Al-Sadr with all the mercy of a wounded bear. I think he'll be less dangerous as a martyr than he is as a speaker. They must be shown the futility of the fight. These riots are just like the LA riots in that: What looks like a whole population gone mad is really a small fraction of the population, with the balance to scared to act against it. Once order is restored and the criminals arrested the majority will become more and more comfortable supporting the efforts openly, as time goes on. (IMO)

Regardless of our motivation the result is that these people will have a say in their own futures for the first time in their lives. Don't you see the Irony; that each Iraqi interviewed who speaks out against us, is speaking out against authority for the first time in his life without fear of death or worse as punishment? What nobler cause is there than fighting for the rights of a stranger? And don't give me the oil nonsense (have you been to the pumps lately?) Hate Bush's motivation all you want, but our soldiers have every reason to proud of what they are doing for the Iraqi people.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:02 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
He stated poll after poll shows 90% of Iraqi's are behind the effort to bring democracy... But some are still afraid we won't finish the job,


That's way overstated ...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:26 am
That is what the man said.
Quote:
MR. RUSSERT: But you're not concerned about the hearts and minds of the general population in Iraq turning against the United States and erupting, in effect, into a civil war?

AMB. BREMER: I believe we are seeing the few thousands of Iraqis who do not share the democratic vision of the future of Iraq that the vast majority of Iraqis show. Poll after poll, 90 percent or more want democracy here. What we see in these insurgents in Fallujah and in the mobs that support Sadr, we are seeing anti-democratic forces, enemies of freedom, and they simply have to be gotten out of the body politic here for Iraq to move forward. And that's the process we're in now. There will be some people, like the driver, who have that view, but that's not the majority view.

The rest of the transcript if anyone's interested is here.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:27 am
At this point, I would trust the daily newspaper horoscope over anything Bremer has to say.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2004 11:28 am
Yes, well, Bremer might be buffing
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Attention: John McCain is doing meet the press right now!
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 03/04/2026 at 12:32:55