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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
Herald
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 10:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I have no idea of what you mean that I have "ignored what weve said about 'evidence' from day one."
     I can explain it: you have no idea that FM and his fellow-atheists have no verifiable evidence about any of the key assumptions on which they base their fake theories. You have no idea that there exist 'theories' that can be constructed in that way.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 10:45 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The other side is asserting there is no evidence that "evolution" has occurred...by simply dismissing the massive amount of evidence that has been presented indicating that the process, in some form, has been occurring.
     What 'massive amount of evidence' - you have no assumptions to construct the theory and no evidence for the assumptions. The 'massive amount of evidence' is a history record of life on the Earth - only this and nothing else - there is no evidence of any evolution out there, absolutely none.


I also said, "Arguing with someone denying "the process" (the way some of these guys are denying it)...is probably the most illogical thing occurring in this thread"...

...so you will excuse me if I do not engage you in discussion or debate on the issue, Herald.
Quehoniaomath
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 10:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
..so you will excuse me if I do not engage you in discussion or debate on the issue, Herald.


Afraid and a bit biased now, are we? Smells like a coward to me!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 10:46 am
Farmerman...

...still waiting for a response to my last post to you.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 11:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
I suggest you read what is in this post Frank.

http://able2know.org/topic/226001-206#post-5843385

We are left with arguing whether you have unicorns flying out of your butt. You have to argue that is entirely possible and anyone that denies it is not being logical. Otherwise your God argument makes no sense.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 11:23 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

I suggest you read what is in this post Frank.

http://able2know.org/topic/226001-206#post-5843385

We are left with arguing whether you have unicorns flying out of your butt. You have to argue that is entirely possible and anyone that denies it is not being logical. Otherwise your God argument makes no sense.


I already read the post...

...and the conclusions you draw from it when reading what I wrote...make no sense.

Sagan was an agnostic...as am I. I think he would find absolutely nothing to disagree with in what I have stated.

If you disagree in that opinion, and want to discuss it...give an argument for why what I said (quote it, please) is out of line or incorrect.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 06:08 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps!
     Enough is enough - do you have a plausible theory for the appearance of the water on the Earth, or not? ... in no more than 25 words, and without any anime & irrelevant references , if possible.


http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/dielaughing.gif Jeebus, if you were any more dense, light would bend around you. You were just called on using the "god of the gaps" fallacy and respond with another god of the gaps fallacy. Comedy gold!!! http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/rofl2.gif

God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps!
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 10:57 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps! God of the gaps!
     Perhaps this should mean that you have no idea about the origin of water on earth and you don't care whether the currently accepted hypotheses are parody of scientific explanations or even something worse.
     I don't claim that God has brought the water down to the Earth to call this 'God of the gaps', but you also don't have any plausible explanation of that. The much more honest approach would be to call this inexplicable for now and to treat it as undefined variable in the assumptions, when you casually use the 65% of the water in our body to explain the origin of life on earth.
     BTW the water might have come here from the helium 3 emitted by the Sun and at some point the reaction to have stopped by some reason - some equilibrium concentration or s.th. It doesn't matter - what matters here is that you are building various fake theories on even more fake assumptions and when you come to some contradiction (which virtually means impossibility of existence), you just ignore it light-handed ... that automatically could be designated as Science made out of gaps.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 11:08 pm
@Herald,
And again!! Laughing Yer killin' me, Homer. You have no idea about basic logic, apparently. Committing a logical fallacy doesn't mean that your conclusion is wrong; it only means that your argument doesn't lead to your conclusion. You have to make new premises and try again. You seem to think that if any random individual on the internet can't present irrefutable proof of every aspect of the universe from the beginning of time, you automatically get a gap to wedge your "personal 45% god" into. Figure it out, dunce. http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/fest42.gif If you had even a microscopic mote of evidence for your "personal 45% god," then our demands might be equivalent. Show me a microscopic mote, at least, of such evidence, then we're in a position to compare it to the evidence for the scientific cosmology. Until then, you're just digging yourself a deeper hole, exposing your ignorance more and more. Keep it up, though. It's pretty entertaining, watching you shoot yourself in the foot over and over and over and over and over again. http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/consoling2.gif
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 11:09 pm
@Herald,
To wit: Define "fake theory."


Laughing
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 11:20 pm
@Herald,
Quote:
God of the gaps
A God of the gaps argument is one that argues that since some phenomenon is unexplained, it must be due to God. It is also a form of non sequitur, since the hand of God is posited without proof and often with complete disregard to other possible explanations.

Background

Sometimes a subject such as evolution is not understood by the speaker but may be well understood by many others, such as scientists. Of course, evolution is not a theory of chance, and has well established mechanisms underlying it.

For Bill O'Reilly: The moon causes the tides, due to gravitational tidal effects as it revolves around the earth.[1]

Even when a subject is not well understood (i.e., the origin of the universe), that is not sufficient grounds for assuming an unproven answer like "God did it". Since the "explanation" of God is more complex than the entities that are purportedly explained by God, introducing God without evidence is simply begging the question.

There is a time where people need to understand that there are certain things that we currently do not possess the technology to know about. This is where the dreaded truth must come in - I don't know.

Examples

"Scientists can't explain how life came to be. There must have been a god to create the first life form."
"The Big Bang theory doesn't explain what caused the Big Bang. There must have been a god to set the universe in motion."
"The bacterial flagellum is too complex to have evolved through natural means. Therefore, an intelligent designer must have been involved in its formation."
"Even if the theory of evolution is correct, it doesn't explain how the first life form arose. Perhaps God's hand created life and set evolution in motion."
"Scientists can't explain everything about how consciousness arises, therefore something divine must be at work in conscious beings."
"Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that. You can’t explain why the tide goes in." [2]


Counter-apologetics

Unstated premise
The argument from ignorance is, at heart, an Enthymeme, a syllogism with an unstated premise:

I don't understand how x could have happened.
Anything I don't understand is caused by God.
Therefore, God caused x.

(unstated premise highlighted.)

Gaps are shrinking
A god of the gaps argument is an argument from ignorance: it boils down to "We do not know how X happened, therefore X was caused by a god." However, ignorance is never an argument for something. It merely means we do not (yet) know the cause of the phenomenon.

To see why this argument is a fallacy, we can consider similar arguments could have been made at different points in human history:

2000 years ago: "We do not know what causes lightning, therefore it must be a god throwing lightning bolts from the sky."
1000 years ago: "We do not know what keeps the planets in their courses. There must be angels pushing them along."
500 years ago: "We do not know what causes diseases, therefore they must be punishments from God."
200 years ago: "We do not know how the many species of plants and animals could have appeared, therefore God must have created them."
100 years ago: "We do not know how the universe started, therefore God must have done it."
60 years ago: "We do not know how genes are passed from parent to child, therefore traits must be imprinted upon the soul."
As new explanations emerge, the gaps in our knowledge shrink, leaving less and less room in which to fit a god. Since human knowledge keeps growing all the time, it does not seem like a safe bet to assume that any given gap will remain one for very long.

An insufficient explanation
Another objection can be made to the argument's means of ignoring the question it originally intends to answer. For example, answering "What caused the big bang?" with "God did it" still does not answer the question of origins, as the god inserted into the gap still requires an explanation.


How, not What
Theists are frequently intolerant of scientific concepts that seek to provide naturalistic explanations. It is not difficult to reach a "compromise" where the theist adopts the full scientific explanation without challenge. By asking the theist "How did God do this?", the theist generally becomes receptive to the scientific explanation.

By presenting arguments in a manner that theists can accept, they gain knowledge, which is always poisonous to theistic belief.

Wrong Premise
The real question isn't "Is it possible that God exists in the unknown?" it's "Is it probable?" We should be concerned with whether or not a thing is actually true or likely true - not whether it's possibly true.

A Leap of Faith
Even if there is some supernatural being behind what science can't explain, what proof is there that it is the God of Classical Theism rather than Zeus, or Amun Ra, or Cthulhu?


http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=God_of_the_gaps
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 01:20 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
To wit: Define "fake theory."
     A (standard, normal - call it as you wish) theory is a set of statements for explaining or representing some piece of knowledge with justification that is used also to assign the truth value of that statements. The components of a theory that have no justification, but are accepted true by default (usually as obvious) are called axioms. All the other statements (or claims of the theory) are called theorems, or simply inferences (a set of logical inferences leading to a new standing of the knowledge representation). The inferences may be a chain of math calculations, but they can be also made on the basis of a predefined set of inference rules (logical inference) like, for example generalization, Specialization, Induction, Deduction, Logical exclusion, Non-contradiction, Excluded logical fallacies, etc.
     Example: if we have a set of [[red][green][blue]] the Generalizaion of these is [color] (it may be also [basic screen mode] if you like).
     When a theory does not comply with any logical formal model - it is called implausible ... as a theory; and when a theory is full of self-contradictions and is contradicting also to fundamental laws of major sciences (like physics and math logic - that it is supposed to live in harmony with), it is called unsustainable ... impossible as a theory - it cannot exist as a theory, not as a set of claims in some subject matter - and when an implausible & unsustainable 'theory' appears on the 'event horizon' and self-pronounces as a 'standard theory explaining everything' (without even having the qualities of explaining everything, along the other things) - this is called how?
     On the other hand fake in the sense of counterfeit means to imitate something. Counterfeit products are fake replicas of the real product. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product. The word counterfeit frequently describes both the forgeries of currency and documents, as well as the imitations of clothing, handbags, shoes, pharmaceuticals, aviation and automobile parts, watches, electronics (both parts and finished products), software, works of art, toys, movies.
     Now if you make a logical inference over the two definitions you may have the definition of fake theory.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 01:37 am
@Herald,
Nice copy-pasta, Herod!

Now focus on the scientific definition of a theory:

Quote:
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[5] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis').[6] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

Which brings us to your next vocabulary/logic lesson:

Quote:
ox·y·mo·ron noun \ˌäk-sē-ˈmȯr-ˌän\
: a combination of words that have opposite or very different meanings


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oxymoron

In other words, it looks OK until you actually analyze it. Then it's revealed as babbling jibberish, which is admittedly hardly inconsistent with any of your other ideas. Laughing
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 02:42 am
@Herald,
Nonsense: biological evolution does not depend on any particular cosmic origin. All "the Big Bang" is for you is an attempt to divert discussion from the paucity of your evidence for any design appearing in the diversity of life on this planet.

It is meaningless twaddle which avoids discussion without enlightening any discussion of the subject.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 02:49 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science.
     Yes, but this is too general. What do you personally understand by well-confirmed type of explanation ... in terms of the assumptions for the Big Bang, for example.
     Further, what do you understand by consistent with scientific method - don't you think that the mind-blowing claims of the Big Bang 'theory' should be verified against the physical laws of conservation and the math logic laws of non-contradiction, or they should be left as they are - standing above the things?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 02:53 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Nonsense: biological evolution does not depend on any particular cosmic origin.
     Absolutely - life on earth could have appeared with or without the water ... or perhaps even without the chemical elements. WFM.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 02:57 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science.
     Yes, but this is too general.


Tough titty. You're free to go off and write your own dictionary and make up all the definitions you like, but you'll be the only person you can converse meaningfully with. The rest of us are going to stick with the meanings of words as given.

Quote:
What do you personally understand by ...


Broken record. Neither my nor your nor anyone else's personal understandings, preferences or beliefs make a damn to what the evidence and necessary inference indicate.

Still waiting for something with equivalent or at least comparable support concerning your "personal 45% god." http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/goodmorning.gif
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 03:07 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Tough titty. You're free to go off and write your own dictionary and make up all the definitions you like, but you'll be the only person you can converse meaningfully with. The rest of us are going to stick with the meanings of words as given.
     So, you dispute that a theory should not justify its statements and when it accepts something axiomatically it should really be an axiom and nothing else, or what? Perhaps you will dispute also that a theory should be free of any contradictions, especially contradiction within the self.
     Can you write the expression for the conservation of the energy/mass/momentum with the Big Bang at time zero (few nanoseconds before 'the event')?
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 03:08 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Broken record. Neither my nor your nor anyone else's personal understandings, preferences or beliefs make a damn to what the evidence and necessary inference indicate.


Well, you seem to have never connected 'sciene'. and 'evidence' with some psychology. So much is clear.

WHO looks at the evidence?! confirmation bias? cognitive dissonance?
vested interesst? finances? lying? competition? revenge? and the list goes on and on. You see, 'evidence' is always in a sort of a context with people and the culture of those people.



Man o man.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2014 03:24 am
@Herald,
Read the definition carefully. There's obviously something you're missing or failing to comprehend. If it doesn't fit the definition of a theory, then you can't call it one. Study them thar fallacies, young'un, and figure out how to say what you mean.

http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/e06c.htm

Quote:

Fallacies of Ambiguity

Ambiguous Language


In addition to the fallacies of relevance and presumption we examined in our previous lessons, there are several patterns of incorrect reasoning that arise from the imprecise use of language. An ambiguous word, phrase, or sentence is one that has two or more distinct meanings. The inferential relationship between the propositions included in a single argument will be sure to hold only if we are careful to employ exactly the same meaning in each of them. The fallacies of ambiguity all involve a confusion of two or more different senses.

Equivocation

An equivocation trades upon the use of an ambiguous word or phrase in one of its meanings in one of the propositions of an argument but also in another of its meanings in a second proposition.

Really exciting novels are rare.
But rare books are expensive.
Therefore, Really exciting novels are expensive.
Here, the word "rare" is used in different ways in the two premises of the argument, so the link they seem to establish between the terms of the conclusion is spurious. In its more subtle occurrences, this fallacy can undermine the reliability of otherwise valid deductive arguments.
 

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