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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2014 09:53 pm
I've long liked Sagan's Bullshit (call a spade a spade) Detection Kit: http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/

Quote:
..the kit, Sagan argues, isn’t merely a tool of science — rather, it contains invaluable tools of healthy skepticism that apply just as elegantly, and just as necessarily, to everyday life. By adopting the kit, we can all shield ourselves against clueless guile and deliberate manipulation. Sagan shares nine of these tools:

1. Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”

2. Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

3. Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.

4. Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, the hypothesis that resists disproof in this Darwinian selection among “multiple working hypotheses,” has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.

5. Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.

6. Quantify. If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations. Of course there are truths to be sought in the many qualitative issues we are obliged to confront, but finding them is more challenging.

7. If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.

8. Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler.

9. Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. Consider the grand idea that our Universe and everything in it is just an elementary particle — an electron, say — in a much bigger Cosmos. But if we can never acquire information from outside our Universe, is not the idea incapable of disproof? You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.


The article goes on to list 20 of the most common logical fallacies, but I'll only bring the ones most commonly committed in this thread:

Quote:
...
4. appeal to ignorance — the claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa (e.g., There is no compelling evidence that UFOs are not visiting the Earth; therefore UFOs exist — and there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe. Or: There may be seventy kazillion other worlds, but not one is known to have the moral advancement of the Earth, so we’re still central to the Universe.) This impatience with ambiguity can be criticized in the phrase: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. [Insert: Science doesn't know everything, therefore god. Or: You can't tell me the rotational velocity of a point particle at the edge of a black hole in a 53-dimentional hyperspace, therefore god.

5. special pleading, often to rescue a proposition in deep rhetorical trouble (e.g., How can a merciful God condemn future generations to torment because, against orders, one woman induced one man to eat an apple? Special plead: you don’t understand the subtle Doctrine of Free Will. Or: How can there be an equally godlike Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the same Person? Special plead: You don’t understand the Divine Mystery of the Trinity. Or: How could God permit the followers of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam — each in their own way enjoined to heroic measures of loving kindness and compassion — to have perpetrated so much cruelty for so long? Special plead: You don’t understand Free Will again. And anyway, God moves in mysterious ways.)
...
7. observational selection, also called the enumeration of favorable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses (e.g., A state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent on its serial killers)
...
14. excluded middle, or false dichotomy — considering only the two extremes in a continuum of intermediate possibilities (e.g., “Sure, take his side; my husband’s perfect; I’m always wrong.” Or: “Either you love your country or you hate it.” Or: “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem”) [Insert: "not science, therefore god]
...
18. straw man — caricaturing a position to make it easier to attack (e.g., Scientists suppose that living things simply fell together by chance — a formulation that willfully ignores the central Darwinian insight, that Nature ratchets up by saving what works and discarding what doesn’t. Or — this is also a short-term/long-term fallacy — environmentalists care more for snail darters and spotted owls than they do for people) [Insert: the "warm pond" BS, or claiming that evolution is about abiogenesis]
...
20. weasel words [Insert: Trying to diminish evolution by saying it's "just a theory," while simultaneously trying to elevate their own hypothesis by describing it as a "theory."]
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:30 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
The 5 characteristics of scientific denialism
     These 'evidences' are actually against the Big Bang ... or at least are not in anyway in its benefit.
     1. By depersonification of the origin of the Universe and the origin of Life on Earth the things become just happening and nobody is responsible - for the pollution on the Earth, for example.
     2. We may never come to know whether the Intelligence has shaped the Universe, or the Universe has formed the Intelligence. Actually what is much more interesting is which of the two cases gives us competitive advantage:
     Is it Case A - when we leave the future of the planet in the hands of the fossil fuel tycoons to exhaust the resources to ground zero as fast as they can and to destroy the environment and the life on Earth as they find appropriate - 'You see, it is the stochastics (the gambling bias of the Big Bang) that is ruling the Universe ... and nothing can be done, unfortunately' - which is into the epicenter of the brainwashing and the main reason for the standardization of any fake 'cosmological theories'.
     OR Case B: in which the Intelligence should take its responsibility and start analyzing the meteorological data of the meteorological satellites about oxides and the dust pollutants in the air, and parameters of the water cycles, acidification of the ocean, etc. and should start issuing forecasts (that are not exactly prophecies) about the future tendencies.
     3. The Big Bang 'theory' is fighting all the time to take the place of God - O.K. Good,
   - What is the position of the Big Bang on the allocation of the resources - stochastic - any waste of resources is absolutely justified, no matter the consequences.
   - What is the position of the Big Bang on social perspective - stochastic - any population overgrowth is hunky dori.
   - What is the position of the Big Bang in terms of our personal responsibility - stochastic, in this case meaning absolute irresponsibility. Nobody is to be responsible and everybody goes to Hell ... sooner than expected.
FBM wrote:
what is it (denialism) and how should scientists respond?
     The so calling themselves sceptisits are actually also denialists (although there is no emotional shading in the term to put psychic pressure by default on the consumer of the term). Actually the scepticists are worst case scenario of denialism - for the people are wasting a lot of time before recognizing them as such.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:33 am
@Herald,
Where are your "evidences" for your "personal 45% god" hypothesis?
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:40 am
@FBM,
You are relying way too much on authority, day after day after day after....
Who has told you to trust those idiots?????? You really think they will never ly????
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:41 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Where are your "evidences" for your "personal 45% god" hypothesis?
     When you present your evidences for the assumptions of the Big Bang, and for the appearance of the water on the Earth.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:42 am
@Herald,
It is very easy to proof there never was a Big Bang. Very easy.
So, life didn't start there. So, there is no basis for evolution and all it's shite.

Ah well, evolution ios really obsolete. Just a few more years and people wake up and see it for the garbage it is.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:46 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
Where are your "evidences" for your "personal 45% god" hypothesis?
     When you present your evidences for the assumptions of the Big Bang, and for the appearance of the water on the Earth.


Been done. Read the thread. That's a cop-out. Evasion. Cowardly. You are quickly becoming boring. Same old fallacies and evasions over and over and over again. http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/deadhorse.gif
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:51 am
@FBM,
Quote:
You are quickly becoming boring. Same old fallacies and evasions over and over and over again.


But that certainly applies tou you, mate! over and over again! It is geting boring to see you are so blinded to other viewpoints. That means you are following a dogma!
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 12:55 am
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 01:01 am
@FBM,
Herald and quahog became boring long ago; they have the temerity to ask questions but refuse to answer one; prove to us your god exists.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 01:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Herald and quahog became boring long ago; they have the temerity to ask questions but refuse to answer one; prove to us your god exists.


Yeah. Again, leading the horse to water, but not being able to make it think. I guess the only thing to do is point out how batshit their belief system is and contrast it with the world of reason and critical thought. I don't think anybody has ever been reasoned out of a religious conviction; it's not a position they reached by reasoning in the first place. Wink
Herald
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 02:42 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Been done. Read the thread.
     Nothing is over until the fat lady starts singing - this asteroid mumbo-jumbo bringing water to the Earth (only) is fable for idiots. If you like to self-pronounce yourself as such this is your personal problem. Asteroids are falling everywhere throughout the Universe - where is the water they are carrying - and from where they have all that water to deliver it stochastically here and there? ... and where is the stochastic function of probability distribution ... of the supplied by the asteroids water in the SS.
     BTW when an asteroid falls down to the Earth it is burned down into plasma - and the plasma state of water is oxygen ions and hydrogen ions - it is not water. Actually for the 'theory' of the Big Bang it doesn't matter - so and so the Big Bang is in contradiction with all the laws of physics and math logic.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/deadhorse.gif
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 02:46 am
@Herald,
I thought long and hard about this for approximately 4 seconds and decided to give your posts all the intellectual attention and respect they deserve:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/airwank%201.gif
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 03:11 am
Jokers like Herald always trot out "the Big Bang," and frequently abiogenesis. Biological evolution cannot take place until there is life--so cosmic origins and the origin of life are non-starters for an argument against evolution. Bringing them up is willful misdirection, it is an attempt to avoid addressing the specifics of the debate.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 03:14 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Yeah. Again, leading the horse to water, but not being able to make it think. I guess the only thing to do is point out how batshit their belief system is and contrast it with the world of reason and critical thought. I don't think anybody has ever been reasoned out of a religious conviction; it's not a position they reached by reasoning in the first place


And as yet, saying NOTHING. again!

Now please point your ctitical thinking to the evolution shite and see it is all flawed!


OR explain to us why it is not flawed!


And again and again and again your dragging my belief systyem into your shite ,
I have told you repeatedly it has nothing to do with a belief systen you FOOL!

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 03:17 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Jokers like Herald always trot out "the Big Bang," and frequently abiogenesis. Biological evolution cannot take place until there is life--so cosmic origins and the origin of life are non-starters for an argument against evolution. Bringing them up is willful misdirection, it is an attempt to avoid addressing the specifics of the debate.


As we both know, he's been told that over and over and over and over again, but keeps making the same mistake, pretending the discussion never took place. End-stage denialism is my diagnosis. Time to let the patient go and let nature take its course.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 03:24 am
@FBM,
tel me why you are so fanatically trying to rescue the evolution shite, mate?
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 03:28 am
@FBM,
Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments!
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 04:21 am
@Quehoniaomath,
MAN, YOU ARE LIKE SOME LITTLE KID. Are you required to do penance Quahog? The fact that you have no evidence , no argument AND use ad hominems is just you. You've embraced it. You dnt have to write it 100 times.

When you decide to insert a thought or two, I , for one, would be interested in hearing it.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2014 04:44 am
@farmerman,
Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments! Ad Hominems and no arguments!
 

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