Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

@Olivier5,

You mean to tell us that you're also 'guessing' about fairies? Come on, you can prover there are or aren't any fairies. You are guessing! LOL

Who would have known. Mr. Green

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

No disagreement, just saying the same argument can be made about fairies. To me, gods are like fairies; the concepts are very close: some hypothetical supernatural entity that interfere in our lives, generally in a good way. If you think that 'gods' are something else entirely, pray tell. I am not too sure what you mean by the word.

Well...perhaps you ought to start a conversation with one of the many atheists here in A2K then. They seem very interested in discussing fairies...and leprechauns and unicorns.

The concepts, though, are not very close at all.

The concept of a GOD (or gods) is a guess about the true nature of the REALITY of existence. It is a suggestion that the answer to "what is THIS all about"...contains a GOD of some sort...a beginning being.

Fairies, leprechauns, unicorns and the like...are merely devices atheists use to demean the agnostic argument that we truly do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence, therefore insisting that there is a GOD...or insisting there are no gods...is illogical.

By the way...I did not use the term "supernatural." If there is a GOD...I do not see how the GOD could be considered supernatural, because if a GOD exists, it IS a part of nature, whether humans are able to sense it or not.

But the specific issue in play right now, Olivier, is not whether gods exist or not...but rather whether or not the comment "THERE ARE NO GODS" is anything other than a blind guess.

Right?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

A beginning being? What do you mean? A creator?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

A beginning being? What do you mean? A creator?

Enough with the questions, Olivier.

You can answer the question that started this back and forth without any of this other stuff.

You are allowed to say, "You are correct, Frank" you know!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I am just trying to help you express yourself in a clear, coherent way, so that you can refine your thesis a bit, and perhaps even find answers to some of your questions. It's called maieutics.

A creator god is indeed quite different from a fairy. IMO a good case can be made that our universe must have come from something else, somehow, somebody... That's called the prime cause argument, no? But that is a discussion about the origin of the universe. Totally different from a discussion about whether there is 'magic' or 'enchantment' (or however you want to call the 'supernatural') in this world, once created.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I am just trying to help you express yourself in a clear, coherent way, so that you can refine your thesis a bit, and perhaps even find answers to some of your questions. It's called maieutics.

I don't think of you as a particularly clear, coherent poster, Olivier...and quite frankly, I'd sooner ask Chris Christie for help on keeping my weight down.

Quote:

A creator god is indeed quite different from a fairy. IMO a good case can be made that our universe must have come from something else, somehow, somebody... That's called the prime cause argument, no? But that is a discussion about the origin of the universe. Totally different from a discussion about whether there is 'magic' or 'enchantment' (or however you want to call the 'supernatural') in this world, once created.

All very interesting...but just part of you dodging what you cannot answer without the words, "You are correct, Frank."

Let's try it again:

The assertion "THERE ARE NO GODS" cannot be anything but a guess.

Do you agree or disagree?

And if you disagree...tell me why...and we can discuss it.

Hey, Olivier, I am pretty sure you are enjoying this give and take as much as I. I hope none of it is taking time from that busy schedule you mentioned earlier.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I think i disagree with you but until you actually explain what you mean by 'god' and 'guess', i can't be certain.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Here, let me help you with some definitions for the words you're asking about.

Quote:

God
noun
1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

Quote:

guess
verb
1. estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.
"she guessed the child's age to be 14 or 15"
synonyms: estimate, hazard a guess, reckon, gauge, judge, calculate;
synonyms: suppose, think, imagine, expect, suspect, dare say; More
noun: guess; plural noun: guesses
1. an estimate or conjecture.
"my guess is that within a year we will have a referendum"
synonyms: hypothesis, theory, prediction, postulation, conjecture, surmise, estimate, belief, opinion, reckoning, judgment, supposition, speculation, suspicion, impression, feeling; More

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I think i disagree with you but until you actually explain what you mean by 'god' and 'guess', i can't be certain.

That presents a problem for you, Olivier, because apparently you do want to disagree with me.

I truly do not mean this next part to be rude, but I, on the other hand, do not really care if you agree or disagree...although if you do disagree, I am willing to discuss the reasons you disagree.

But the way things are, we are at an impasse.

Guess we will just leave it at this...although I have a nagging sensation that you won't.

I'll be here for ya.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

LOL. I know what most people call a 'guess', but Frank has his own understanding of the English language. If you can send the definitions that HE uses, that'd be useful... Smile

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

It's a dead end because you ask vague questions. I can try and help you formulate them more precisely but if you reject my help, as is your prerogative of course, there's little i can do, other than tell you what I THINK your question is about.

I THINK you're asking about some creator(s) of our universe, and not about any magical creatures (like non-creator gods or devils or angels) which may interfere with this world created by someone else than they...

Many gods are not creators. They just manage, are in charge of, some natural force or another created by some other god. In most mythologies i know of at least, the creator entities are either one or two in number. Either a unique god creates the world like an artist or engineer would create/ design an object, or a couple of gods give birth to the world like two parents engender a child. All the other gods are 'managers' of what they inherit from the creator(s).

Eg in the OT, they are many gods, contrary to popular belief. But only El/Elohim created the world. Yahweh is but a manager of one tribe, the Hebrews.

So FOR ME, one can reasonably argue for the absence of a 'manager god', defined as a magical being (gods, but also santa claus, fairies and angels and demons) interfering with this world with some purpose in mind. Science has explained many of the phenomena that religions attribute to gods. But the existence of some cause for the universe is hard to argue one way or the other. It's a purely metaphysical question, in my view.

3 Replies

@Olivier5,

In short: i agree with you if you mean a creator god, but i disagree if you mean an interventionist god.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

It's really a philosophical question whether there is a creator or not. We just can't overlook the fact that for many humans, god(s) exist for them. That is their reality.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

It's a dead end because you ask vague questions.

NOTHING vague about my question.

You are trying to dodge the question.

Quote:

I can try and help you formulate them more precisely but if you reject my help, as is your prerogative of course, there's little i can do, other than tell you what I THINK your question is about.

Massage your ego all you want, Olivier. I have been published in the media very, very often...and almost always without so much as a comma changed. I have been published under circumstances that show my ability to make concise, coherent, reasonable comments to be first rate.

But watching you do the ego massage is funny...so thanks! Wink

Quote:

I THINK you're asking about some creator(s) of our universe, and not about any magical creatures (like non-creator gods or devils or angels) which may interfere with this world created by someone else than they...

Many gods are not creators. They just manage, are in charge of, some natural force or another created by some other god. In most mythologies i know of at least, the creator entities are either one or two in number. Either a unique god creates the world like an artist or engineer would create/ design an object, or a couple of gods give birth to the world like two parents engender a child. All the other gods are 'managers' of what they inherit from the creator(s).

Eg in the OT, they are many gods, contrary to popular belief. But only El/Elohim created the world. Yahweh is but a manager of one tribe, the Hebrews.

So FOR ME, one can reasonably argue for the absence of a 'manager god', defined as a magical being (gods, but also santa claus, fairies and angels and demons) interfering with this world with some purpose in mind. Science has explained many of the phenomena that religions attribute to gods. But the existence of some cause for the universe is hard to argue one way or the other. It's a purely metaphysical question, in my view.

Great dance! Who's your choreographer...Professor Irwin Corey?

Laughable...but great!

So now that you have "answered" whatever it is that you were "answering" there...

...how about trying this one:

Do you agree that the assertion "THERE ARE NO GODS" cannot be anything but a guess?

Handle that one, Olivier. That is the one we were discussing. Not any of that other stuff you were hiding behind.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I have nothing to add to my explanation. The answer to your question depends on the type of god you're talking about.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I have nothing to add to my explanation. The answer to your question depends on the type of god you're talking about.

Wake up, Olivier...I changed the comment a bit to accommodate this terrible dilemma of yours. The idea is to take it in small pieces...so you can work through the entire problem.

The changed assertion is:

Do you agree that the assertion "THERE ARE NO GODS" cannot be anything but a guess?

It does not matter one whit what kind of god being spoken of...that covers all of 'em.

And keep in mind that we are talking not about what I am saying...but what others have written. I made that clear in the beginning...which should be apparent to a Professor of Clarity as you apparently perceive yourself to be.

So...do you agree that the assertion "THERE ARE NO GODS" cannot be anything but a guess?

(Personal note: The lengths you are going through so that you do not have to say, "You are correct, Frank" is better than a Monty Python skit. I cannot begin to tell you how much I am enjoying this!)

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Tell me Frank, do you agree that the assertion "there is no sjbftujifrt" can only be a guess?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Tell me Frank, do you agree that the assertion "there is no sjbftujifrt" can only be a guess?

It's okay, Olivier.

It is hard to acknowledge. I understand.

Continue to delude yourself.

Have a great day tomorrow.

Turkey is delicious.

You gonna eat any?

1 Reply

I find it really odd that the very people who so strongly want us to believe in what they believe in suddenly clam up when we ask exactly what they believe in. How could we even potentially agree with them if they don't even openly state their claim?

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You're asking the same questions; the big bang theory has been explained, and the evidence provided.

Are you sure you are competent to discuss this issue?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Your failure to understand the evidence is your problem

Why don't you simplyu answer to any of the questions ... if you understand them at all.

cicerone imposter wrote:

not the physicists who have explained it in layman's terms.

Can you tell us here, in not more than 100 words what have you personally understood of the explanation you are citing ... without even knowing what it means.

cicerone imposter wrote:

THERE IS NO GOD.

Prove it.

cicerone imposter wrote:

YOU CAN'T PROVE YOUR GOD EXISTS.

Just like the Big Bang.

cicerone imposter wrote:

YOU CAN'T CREATE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING

What would you say about the Emergence of life on the planet ... from bullion of amino-acids and a lightning. Can you repeat the process by some tests ... on a sterile planet (without biosphere).

cicerone imposter wrote:

WHO CREATED GOD?

This is not our problem - for we don't have even the assumptions to start with.

cicerone imposter wrote:

THE BIG BANG THEORY HAS BEEN EXPLAINED

This is a statement of a district governor ... not of somebody who presents himself as scientist.

cicerone imposter wrote:

IT'S THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE.

How?

cicerone imposter wrote:

It's been proven by measuring the distance of starts.

You cannot measure anything by the same means (light shift) that you are verifying - the systematic error is always confirmed. What is your definition of a verification process?

cicerone imposter wrote:

"Theories can't be proven, but they can be disproven."

Theories can be verified and validated and respectively confirmed or disproven depending on the results of the verification and validation tests ... which have to be 'orthogonal' to the original assumptions.

cicerone imposter wrote:

Disprove that the universe is not expanding

If it is expanding elastically the orbit of the Earth around the Sun should become bigger ... but as the unit measures would be 'expanding' elastically - you can never prove or disprove such a claim unless you find something that cannot be expanding and measure with it the other things.
Why don't you explain how exactly the Universe is expanding - with acceleration ... and if the rate of expansion at the moment is Re why don't you apply the acceleration in reverse ... for a time period of 13.78 By and see how much must have been the initial speed (at which the Big Bang is supposed to have created the Universe). How much is the speed of the creation of the world?

1 Reply

Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know