19
   

Would open primaries lead to a more moderate government?

 
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 03:00 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

I don't want moderate office holders. I want office holders who agree with me. Mine may or may not be the moderate view for any given issue.


I couldn't agree more, but usually the ones I strongly support overall have one of those given issues to which I am totally opposed. What to do; what to do?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 03:08 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

boomerang wrote:
He's making sense to me. Am I missing something?

You may be missing that their original problem statement is wrong:

Quote:
Republicans try to be the most conservative candidate in the field in deep-red districts, while Democrats try to be the most liberal candidate in sky-blue districts.

Republicans try to be the most conservative candidate in deep-red districts. Democrats do not necessarily try to be the most liberal candidate in sky-blue districts. The problem is not symmetrical.


AMEN!

Fact is, there are liberal tending politicians in safe liberal districts...who never even mention the word liberal.

Conservative candidates all over the country regularly portray themselves as "the most conservative" candidate in the contest.

When did anyone last hear a liberal candidate portray him/herself as the most liberal?

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 04:00 pm
That's Reed Wilson saying that, not all politics writers at the Washington Post. I don't know anything about him, don't read wapo like I used to before they had a pay block. I subscribed at one point, but that was in the later eighties (lived in Los Angeles).

I have Thomas's first stated qualms and get his present well, maybe.
I've thought of it as a mode crying for mischief.

My bias is that I've never liked, from either or more sides, the whole gerrymandering maneuvering. And no, I don't know how to fix that. I've considered grids, but..
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 05:15 pm
@Kolyo,
That reminds me of when Ralph Nader ran for president and everyone thought he got too many votes from Democrats, giving the election to the Republicans.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 05:18 pm
@Brandon9000,
I too want representatives who agree with me.

Since that's really impossible, I'll go with the moderate who mostly agrees with me rather than an extremest who only totally agrees with on a few things.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 05:21 pm
@Thomas,
Maybe it's because I'm writing from a very liberal city in a fairly liberal state that this makes sense to me. I think we do have candidates try to out-liberal others candidates.

If there were a moderate opponent they might very well get my vote.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 05:33 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Maybe it's because I'm writing from a very liberal city in a fairly liberal state that this makes sense to me.

Surely you're exaggerating. It's not like you're living in Portland or something.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2013 05:57 pm
Buncha damned hippie refugees . . .
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 11:21 am
@boomerang,
Quote:
Would open primaries lead to a more moderate government?

What's to prevent the most conservative Republicans from voting for the nuttiest of Democratic candidate to tip the election ever so slightly against and away from the candidate who had the best chance against the Republican candidate with an open primary (or vice versa)? Nothing. Open primaries as the solution against grid locked politics is a mere fallacy.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 11:52 am
Now that I've thought about it again, it seems to me that Washington's system is barely distinguishable from the two-round systems by which France elects its president and mayors. In France, everyone can run in the first round. Candidates who win more than 50% of the vote in the first round win right then and there. (Note that this gives moderates an incentive to show up in the first round.) Otherwise, the first two finishers of the first round run off against each other, and whoever gets the most votes wins. That's basically what Washington does, except for the shortcut where one candidate wins in the first round.

This system seems to work well in France. So, if you can increase its acceptance by calling it "a primary" instead of "that's how they do it in France", I'm all for it.
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 12:38 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Now that I've thought about it again, it seems to me that Washington's system is barely distinguishable from the two-round systems by which France elects its president and mayors. In France, everyone can run in the first round. Candidates who win more than 50% of the vote in the first round win right then and there.


I still think you need three rounds: party primary, blanket primary, run-off. Too many candidates of the same party could split the vote in the first round if your system has only two rounds. You could have 10 Democrats running in the blanket primary. They could get 60% of the vote all put together, but only 6% each, meaning probably none would qualify for the final round even though their party got the most votes overall. You could end up with an ordinary Republican getting 20% of the vote in the first round and a fascist getting 17% of the vote. That's about what happened France in 2002, when Chirac and LePen ended up in first and second.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 03:13 pm
@boomerang,
It seems something of a sham that allowed this concept to avoid California Democratic Party v. Jones.

How is expressing a preference for a party materially different than declaring a party affiliation?

Presumably the candidate who expresses a preference for the Republican Party is receiving support (monetary and otherwise) from the Republican Party.

Ditto Democrats.

Much of one's thinking on this issue, I think, tends to depend upon one's definition of "moderate."

Assuming the argument made herein is accurate, that Republican candidates battle for the title of "most conservative," while Democrat candidates don't contend for the title of "most liberal," this is hardly proof that Republicans are more ideologically driven than Democrats.

It could be (and I think this is the case) that there is a greater frequency of primary battles wherein one candidate is materially different in terms of ideology in the Republican Party than its counter-part.

Value judgments aside, there is far more vigorous battle for primacy of ideology in the Republican Party than in the Democratic Party. This is something of a cyclical affair. During the Vietnam years there was every bit as fervent an internecine ideological struggle within the Democrats as there is now among the Republicans, and this, in turn, led to the rise of the Democratic Leadership Council, and Bill Clinton's Third Way.

Current Democrats are all, essentially, singing from the same hymnal, but in a close race they have no problem appealing to ideological purity: Obama's emphasis on his anti-Iraq ware vote during the 2011 primaries. Was it really necessary for him to say "I am the more liberal or more anti-war candidate?" That he didn't is only a sign that currently, liberals share a very broad understanding of what it means to be a liberal.

Those who see Democrats as moderates and Republicans as extremists are, overwhelmingly liberal. That the media joins them in this definition of the term is quite helpful to the agenda of liberal politicians.

This is a battle of ideas and casting one side as extreme and other as pragmatic and moderate is an effective partisan ploy, but it doesn't make it so.

If conservative ideology is so terribly extreme in terms of what Americans actually believe and want, it will collapse upon itself. There is no need to monkey with primaries.

Moderate Republicans are ones who will go along with Democrats. They are no more beloved to conservatives than were the moderate Democrats who have gone along with Republicans, in their ascendency, to liberals.

Comparing liberals and conservatives in America to those so defined in the rest of the world may be interesting in some sense but it is meaningless in terms of defining what an American Liberal or an American Conservative may be.

If any reform is to be supported it is reform of re-districting schemes.

Here again, the current liberal trope (or for you Dawkinsians, "meme") is that gerrymander is strictly a Republican sin. Given sufficient political power either party will use and have used this approach to stack the deck.

Allowing the party in power to ensure their continuing power through means not connected with performance is harmful, however I'm not sure how the problem can be rectified. "Independent Commissions" are rarely independent and always subject to the manipulation of those in power.

It's always a case of whose ox is being gored. The tables have been repeatedly turned and will be turned again. I am quite sure that at some point in the fairly near future, liberals will be arguing that what others call extremism they call speaking to power and patriotism.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 03:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It seems something of a sham that allowed this concept to avoid California Democratic Party v. Jones.

How is expressing a preference for a party materially different than declaring a party affiliation?

Presumably the candidate who expresses a preference for the Republican Party is receiving support (monetary and otherwise) from the Republican Party.

Ditto Democrats.

Much of one's thinking on this issue, I think, tends to depend upon one's definition of "moderate."

Assuming the argument made herein is accurate, that Republican candidates battle for the title of "most conservative," while Democrat candidates don't contend for the title of "most liberal," this is hardly proof that Republicans are more ideologically driven than Democrats.

It could be (and I think this is the case) that there is a greater frequency of primary battles wherein one candidate is materially different in terms of ideology in the Republican Party than its counter-part.

Value judgments aside, there is far more vigorous battle for primacy of ideology in the Republican Party than in the Democratic Party. This is something of a cyclical affair. During the Vietnam years there was every bit as fervent an internecine ideological struggle within the Democrats as there is now among the Republicans, and this, in turn, led to the rise of the Democratic Leadership Council, and Bill Clinton's Third Way.

Current Democrats are all, essentially, singing from the same hymnal, but in a close race they have no problem appealing to ideological purity: Obama's emphasis on his anti-Iraq ware vote during the 2011 primaries. Was it really necessary for him to say "I am the more liberal or more anti-war candidate?" That he didn't is only a sign that currently, liberals share a very broad understanding of what it means to be a liberal.

Those who see Democrats as moderates and Republicans as extremists are, overwhelmingly liberal. That the media joins them in this definition of the term is quite helpful to the agenda of liberal politicians.

This is a battle of ideas and casting one side as extreme and other as pragmatic and moderate is an effective partisan ploy, but it doesn't make it so.

If conservative ideology is so terribly extreme in terms of what Americans actually believe and want, it will collapse upon itself. There is no need to monkey with primaries.

Moderate Republicans are ones who will go along with Democrats. They are no more beloved to conservatives than were the moderate Democrats who have gone along with Republicans, in their ascendency, to liberals.

Comparing liberals and conservatives in America to those so defined in the rest of the world may be interesting in some sense but it is meaningless in terms of defining what an American Liberal or an American Conservative may be.

If any reform is to be supported it is reform of re-districting schemes.

Here again, the current liberal trope (or for you Dawkinsians, "meme") is that gerrymander is strictly a Republican sin. Given sufficient political power either party will use and have used this approach to stack the deck.

Allowing the party in power to ensure their continuing power through means not connected with performance is harmful, however I'm not sure how the problem can be rectified. "Independent Commissions" are rarely independent and always subject to the manipulation of those in power.

It's always a case of whose ox is being gored. The tables have been repeatedly turned and will be turned again. I am quite sure that at some point in the fairly near future, liberals will be arguing that what others call extremism they call speaking to power and patriotism.



C'mon, Finn.

Who are these "liberals" of whom you speak?

And are both of them actually as you describe them?

The hills are alive with the sound of conservatives...proudly proclaiming their conservatism. The people who run in Republican primaries for the most part are people proudly proclaiming their conservative credentials. And in Republican primaries, the contestants often argue over who is the MOST conservative of the group.

How many contestants in Democratic primaries can you name who argue that he/she is "the MOST liberal" candidate up for nomination. Not in the most BLUE districts does that happen.

You are being disingenuous in your argument here...and you know you are.

As for the suggestion that the media colludes with "liberals"...why that has been shown to be nonsense again and again...and still it is trotted out in anti-liberal essays all over the place.

I wish there were a respectful way to say, "Get real"...but all there is available are the words.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2013 04:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

C'mon, Finn.

Who are these "liberals" of whom you speak?

And are both of them actually as you describe them?

The hills are alive with the sound of conservatives...proudly proclaiming their conservatism. The people who run in Republican primaries for the most part are people proudly proclaiming their conservative credentials. And in Republican primaries, the contestants often argue over who is the MOST conservative of the group.

How many contestants in Democratic primaries can you name who argue that he/she is "the MOST liberal" candidate up for nomination. Not in the most BLUE districts does that happen.

You are being disingenuous in your argument here...and you know you are.

As for the suggestion that the media colludes with "liberals"...why that has been shown to be nonsense again and again...and still it is trotted out in anti-liberal essays all over the place.

I wish there were a respectful way to say, "Get real"...but all there is available are the words.


Of late you have become quite fond of "C'mon."

You appreciate, don't you, that it's use represents utter dismissal of the post upon which you are commenting? It's OK with me, but you seem to like to consider yourself a reasonable good guy in this forum, so I thought i would offer this little lesson on personal interraction.

Ironically, I find myself in the postion of posting "C'mon Frank!"

Let me see if I understand your argument:

There are, at best, two liberals while the armpits of America are infested with countless consevatives.

It's fairly obvious that you either didn't read my post in full or were unable to comprehend it.

In my post I explained why I think that Republican candidates are, currently, laying claim to ideological purity and why Democrat cadidates are not. I'm not going to restate it in an attempt to find a way for you to comprehend what I wrote.

I am not, at all being disingenuous (unless you believe that Democrats are not subject to the same internal political struggles as Republicans), but you are definately being thick. I prefer to think that this is because you failed to actually consider what I wrote than that you are a blockhead.

As for the liberal media bias, please show me how this has been proven to be a canard by anyone other than a liberal.

I guess Jake Tapper and Kirsten Powers are conservative shills.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 03:37 pm
@tsarstepan,
I don't know tsar.

Let's say your voting in an open primary and there is

One tea party type republican
One conservative republican
One moderate whatever
One liberal democrat
One far left democrat

The two that win the most votes in the primary go on to the election.

You only get one vote. Are you going to risk your chosen candidate not making it to the election by voting against someone else?

I'm not.

Let's say Bill is a total tea party republican. He lives in Texas. He knows that either his candidate or the conservative republican is going to end up in the election. Is he going to vote for the far left democrat just to mix things up?

I don't think so.

No let's say Bill lives in Oregon. He knows his candidate doesn't stand a chance of making it to the election. I think he'll end up voting for the moderate whatever or the conservative republican hoping that he can sway the election away from the liberal and far left candidates.

Same for far left Joe living in either state.

I can see how this might lead to a more moderate, cooperative political body.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 03:38 pm
@Thomas,
It makes sense to me!
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 03:39 pm
@Kolyo,
I think you've got to get rid of the party primary if what you want is politicians who will be willing to work with their "rivals"
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 03:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:
How is expressing a preference for a party materially different than declaring a party affiliation?


I don't know. That seems kind of bogus to me. I'm all for leaving off any party affiliation. People should know something about the candidate they're voting for so party affiliation shouldn't really matter.

Quote:
Assuming the argument made herein is accurate, that Republican candidates battle for the title of "most conservative," while Democrat candidates don't contend for the title of "most liberal," this is hardly proof that Republicans are more ideologically driven than Democrats.


Agreed. I've seen some wacko Democrats in my neck of the woods.
Quote:

That he didn't is only a sign that currently, liberals share a very broad understanding of what it means to be a liberal.


As a liberal, I say good on us!

I don't see liberals as moderates. I see moderate whatevers as moderates.

Quote:
Here again, the current liberal trope (or for you Dawkinsians, "meme") is that gerrymander is strictly a Republican sin. Given sufficient political power either party will use and have used this approach to stack the deck.


I'm asking out of pure curiosity -- where have Democrats done this? I really don't know.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 05:16 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
I think you've got to get rid of the party primary if what you want
is politicians who will be willing to work with their "rivals"
What if u want them to fight for your ideals,
e.g. like liberty from government interference, for example??





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2013 05:23 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I don't know tsar.

Let's say your voting in an open primary and there is

One tea party type republican
One conservative republican . . .
Uh, POINT OF INFORMATION, if I may, boomer???
What is the difference between those 2 types of Republican ??

I was under the impression that the reason for joining the Tea Party (Boston)
was to promote conservatism (Original Americanism).




David
0 Replies
 
 

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