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Victims who forgive: Why do they do it?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 11:33 am
panzade wrote:
Wait a minute Walter!

Back the truck up!

You're telling me that the navigator from a mile up in the air could discern that he had wiped out 2/3's of your father's family?
Somebody help me grasp this concept.


Well, I saw the map (I own a copy), saw their orders for bombing (have no copy, but some A2K members saw similar copies in the town museum of Münster: streets, buildings etc were clearly mentioned) and saw the photos with the destroyed house of my grandparents.

Why do question this? I'm rather sure, it will be online shortly at The Aerial Reconnaissance Archives!
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 12:55 pm
I'm glad y'all are enjoying the article. I don't usually buy hardcovers, but I may have to pop out and pick this one up. I know that by the time it comes out in softcover (if it ever does) I will have forgotten the authors name and the title.

It still blows me away at how forgiving some of you can be.

As I said, I don't think I have that type of sincerity ... must be the Italian and Scottish blood (In my youth, my grandmother (Italian) used to talk about the families that had 'done our family wrong' generations ago in 'The Old Country' and my other grandmother (Scottish) still never forgave the English for the family lost at Culloden (That was in 1746 !!!)

I guess it's just not in me to 'turn the other cheek' when someone has stuck a knife in it.
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Clary
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 06:55 pm
Do you think it's a matter of temperament? Some people look back and are steeped in regret and stuck in the past, and some forget and move on easily. I am married to the former, but am myself the latter but I don't feel it's a choice.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:47 pm
I am mixed, I am a fighter and I also move away, so it depends. If I move away, say in the case of fighting re my divorce situation, I consciously chose not to go into acrimony (vs. matrimony, heh) at what is, I gather, my financial loss.
I balanced roiling emotions for the foreseeable future vs my already present sense of, y'know, we were who we were, and we tried. I might have decided differently with a different person.

Well, what do fighting and moving away have to do with forgiving? Not quite the same thing, but somewhat conjoined in quotidian situations.

I am not sure now... after all these years of thinking I knew what it meant, what exactly forgiveness means. To me now, it just means understanding how it happened, whatever it was, the background, at least from both sides, and maybe seeing how both sides think the way they (we) do.

After understanding how this person did this, reasonably from his point of view, or mindlessly/stupidly, or with venom.... I might adjust to that understanding. I am unlikely to forget it - a pattern that is fairly routine if you look at all Clary's quotes. Although there is a whole upper level of dealing with people, in that everybody goofs up,
and that continuing connection past that requires a certain forbearance.
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JustBrooke
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 08:02 pm
You forgive because you want to set yourself free. And in forgiving someone you cut the chains that bind you, for you rid yourself of a great deal of the anger inside of you.

When a victim forgives someone it is not because they deserve it. Forgiveness truely is a "gift" you give to yourself.

You may never be able to forget what they did to you, as sometimes the scars left behind are too deep to hide. But in time you come to realize that as long as you have not forgiven them.....they still hold some power.


When you hold deep anger for someone.....it's almost like being in a very dark place with no real light. You want to move on. You may even try to move on.....but the darkness blocks your path. And the only way you can start to heal is to remove within your mind some of the emotional stress caused by the victimizer.

It can be pretty near impossible to move on.....until you forgive. It can be one of the hardest things you will ever do.....but always remember....you are doing it for "yourself"

~Brooke
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 12:09 am
That is the essence of the Jesus message: unconditional love.

But, you either have it, or you don't. The forgivers have it.

I think the people who have it really should inherit the earth.
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 04:07 am
Quote:
When you hold deep anger for someone.....it's almost like being in a very dark place with no real light. You want to move on. You may even try to move on.....but the darkness blocks your path. And the only way you can start to heal is to remove within your mind some of the emotional stress caused by the victimizer


You are so right Brooke. And I thank you so much for your post. I spent most of yesterday brooding over an old wound. Now this day I will work on forgiveness instead.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 04:16 am
There's nothing as corrosive to the human spirit that feelings of hatred & anger that go on & on ..... Forgiveness & acceptance allows you to move forward less encumbered.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 11:31 am
In the original story, Colleen realized at some point that her brother was dead, and went through a mental transition to accept that fact. It takes a particularly strong mind to come to that realization so soon, especially when there's no dead body. Years ago, a co-worker died on a Civil Air Patrol training mission when his plane crashed on a mountaintop. Since the plane and its contents burned to ashes, there was no body to bury. And since his wife had seen him leave the house that morning, she had a hard time accepting the fact that he was dead. She didn't have the mental strength to turn that corner and accept the fact. There were people like that in New York City too. During the newscasts where reporters were at the disaster scene, there was always a group of Lost Souls in the background, holding up pictures of missing loved ones so the camera could see them. I don't know what they were thinking at the time. Maybe some viewer in Nebraska would recognize the face on the picture, and the missing person would turn up in a diner in Osceola? If there were no large groups of amnesia patients walking the streets of New York City, and no victims in the hospitals, you would think that people would understand the truth within a couple of days, but some people couldn't.

It seems to me that Colleen flipped a mental switch on that day, but the light that came on for her would be a different color for someone else. Her "mantra" was "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." For someone else it might be "Peace Through Strength" or "Never Forget" or something different, depending on which brain neuron fired at that particular moment. Their organization September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows only has two full-time staff members, so apparently most people accepted the deaths in other ways.

I think it's okay for a person to "turn the other cheek" when someone does violence to them, if that's what they want to do. It's a personal decision that a person can make only for himself. I do NOT think it's acceptable for the President of a country to do that. The President has an obligation to protect and defend the country, so the response there is, at the very least, to take action to make sure such a thing never happens again. That can be accomplished in many different ways. If you look at the website of September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, and click on the link to "Click here for answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Peaceful Tomorrows," you can see (in item #5) that they say they aren't a political advocacy organization, but one of their goals is to discuss this response to 9/11, so I'm not sure that statement holds true. Also I think some of the 9/11 families wear their victimhood like an impenetrable cloak sometimes. It tends to deflect criticism.

Personally, I think forgiveness is nice when you can afford it. If you somehow don't have the capacity or ability to help make the bad situation better, or to assist other victims, or to track down the perpetrators, then it seems forgiveness is about all you have left. When the bullets start flying, a true pacifist Ghandi type will sit down in the Lotus position and resign himself to death. I have never understood that mindset. I had a conversation with a pacifist at another board once, and in my scenario where five angry men were charging toward him and his family with obvious intent to kill them, and he had a gun on the ground at his feet, his choice was to peacefully accept the deaths of himself and his family. I guess the actions of a true pacifist are to offer retroactive forgiveness to everyone. That's too high a price for me. I agree with Noddy24 about forgiving the borrower but never lending him money again. In that case, it's only money. In the case of a human life, though, I don't think forgiveness is affordable.

I have a 1978 book by Dr. Wayne Dyer called "Pulling Your Own Strings." I've read through that thing several times, and I never get tired of it. It's all about how not to be a victim in your daily life. For example, when the clerk in the department store tells you that it's the store's policy and there's nothing he can do to help you, instead of going away angry and blaming the clerk, you demand to see the manager. Now that I think about it, much of the book is about forgiveness, although he doesn't say that specifically. You forgive the clerk for being a jerk, because that's his job. You forgive your family members for victimizing you by generally making you be their servant, and just refuse to do it. You forgive yourself for falling into low self esteem, and you change your ways of thinking so you're not depressed all the time.

Forgiveness - a good thing in many ways. Excellent topic, Fedral.
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JustBrooke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 12:49 pm
JoanneDorel wrote:
Quote:
When you hold deep anger for someone.....it's almost like being in a very dark place with no real light. You want to move on. You may even try to move on.....but the darkness blocks your path. And the only way you can start to heal is to remove within your mind some of the emotional stress caused by the victimizer


You are so right Brooke. And I thank you so much for your post. I spent most of yesterday brooding over an old wound. Now this day I will work on forgiveness instead.


You are very welcome Joanne. I hope you are having a WONDERFUL day.
((HUGS))

~Brooke
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Jarlaxle
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 12:18 pm
Quote:
It's far easier to forgive an enemy after you've got even with him. ~Olin Miller


What he said. I prterfer this philosophy:

Quote:
Don't get mad. Get even.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 12:25 pm
"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

is the next logical step
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 07:41 pm
I prefer the other....

Before setting out on a path of revenge, dig two graves,[/i]
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 10:08 pm
That along the lines of, those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword, I think.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 10:19 pm
It's easier to forgive than to hold hatred in your heart. Most people, unfortunately, never learn that lesson.
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Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 08:58 am
If you don't forgive, then you are continually reliving the hurt. Eventually it consumes you. Why give someone that kind of control over you?
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 09:10 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's easier to forgive than to hold hatred in your heart. Most people, unfortunately, never learn that lesson.


Amen. Forgiving is an act of will. Anyone can forgive anyone else for anything once they decide to.

That doesn't make the person who forgives a saint because in the long run forgiveness is in your best interest. Carrying hate and bitterness is exhausting, unhealthy and poisons a person. You wouldn't carry a boil around on your back for years, and would consider it stupid to do so.
Forgiveness cleanses the forgiver by purging them of bad feelings and negative energy.

This is a lesson best learned as a younger person, because time spent hating people could be put to much better use in other areas, and time is something you don't get back.

Having said that, one does not forget the lesson learned. I have been wronged by some people in my life as I'm sure we all have, and I have genuinely forgiven them for it, but I have not welcomed them into my life with open arms. You don't curse or hate a tiger for being what they are, but you don't bring one into the house a second time unless you have some pathological desire to be mauled again.
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 09:29 am
Noddy24 wrote:
Forgiveness is a step in moving on. Without forgiveness, you dwell in misery, reliving misery day after day and becoming bitter and constricted.


I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Jarlaxle
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2004 06:56 pm
panzade wrote:
"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

is the next logical step


Works for me.
0 Replies
 
 

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