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Do Primates have culture?

 
 
sozobe
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:28 pm
(Well, ominvore. I don't JUST eat meat...)
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dlowan
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 03:52 pm
Lol!!!

I do a kind of weird psychological "fiddle factor".

I don't eat any meat except free-range chook (chicken) (and turkey sometimes) and fish.

Now - as Craven has pointed out, with his relentless logic, this actually means I am responsible for more death than a beef eater - my chosen prey being smaller - but I try to comfort myself with the idea of lower intelligence and such.

In some ways the less "factory" like the life and eath of the critter, the less horrified I am.

Animal experimentation though................

And factory farming - THAT should be banned.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 04:02 pm
I just decided that I'm carnivorous, and that's the way it is, and as long as I recognize that being carnivorous involves killing and that killing isn't pretty and that I don't gloss over that too much, it's fine.

I do what I can to encourage non-factory sorts of situations -- really enjoyed the two long NYT magazine articles that went into all of this. ("Bum Steer"? And a follow-up.) I would love it if small family farms became viable again, cows out there in pastures and not needing antibiotics since they aren't in horrible disease-ridden eating-their-cousins conditions, and am willing to pay more for the products of such farms. (The small family ones, I mean.)
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 04:06 pm
What! Nothing from Jane Goodall? When she wrote her research papers on monkeys, the scientific community didn't believe her until her boyfriend took movies. They eventually married. No, not with the monkeys - to each other - Jane and the photo-journalist.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 04:08 pm
Lots from Jane Goodall! Flo! Etc.!
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 04:12 pm
interesting, until a few years ago I raised all my own meat (beef-lamb-pork) while a the same time working with a cadre of "liberal" social workers who very often decried my savagery of butchering and eating the very animals I had raised while they were quite content to stop by the market for a t-bone for sunday afternoon on the grill that was most likely raised at one of those "factories" but neatly wrapped and displayed under clear wraps at the meat counter. disconnected reality?
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sozobe
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 04:22 pm
Good for you for raising your own.

I think that's a stupid disconnect, yeah.

Not saying I'm not wimpy myself (I'd have a heck of a time actually killing a lamb), but I recognize the disconnect anyway.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2004 06:07 pm
I've only ever killed (with my own hands, not my purchasing power), but damn are they tasty. Partly because, I think, the act of snapping their little necks compels me to enjoy their flaky flesh.

Go back and forth on the eating of animals thing -- but I can never get myself off the cheese, and the difference between keeping an animal for its milk -- and killing it when it's not producing any more -- and killing it to eat it is fine indeed. Actually, I would like to keep goats or sheep for milk sometime, but dunno if it'll ever happen.

Helping kill cats and dogs last summer was a trip. Not as traumatic as I'd expected it to be, but very serious business nonetheless.
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kitchenpete
 
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Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 05:03 am
Setanta wrote:

I would suggest in your troop of chimpanzees, that if those who signed were the ones with dominant status, eventually all or nearly all of the troop members would sign. Were they not dominant, i would suggest that teaching sign language would only take place between the signing chimpanzees and their offspring. Perhaps, the signing chimpanzees would eventually succeed to dominant status, and all of the troop might eventually sign to one another.

There are also some interesting implications in this about the origin of "conservative" and "liberal" attitudes among humans.


Set, your last line was very much what was in my head as I considered the attitudes of the "established" leadership group to new-fangled ideas of the younger/less socially accepted groups.

What's chimpanzee for "apres ca la deluge"? Laughing
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Setanta
 
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Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 05:08 am
heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .


I first read about that years ago, Boss, and what i wrote in that last line was my immediate thought.

Plus ça change . . .
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Piffka
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 02:28 pm
Did you see this? Hard to believe there is much culture in this teeny thing.

A ten-day-old marmoset clutches the finger of a zoo keeper at the zoo in Wittenberg, Germany, Friday, April 23, 2004. (AP)
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040423/thumb.hal10104231122.germany_baby_monkey_hal101.jpg
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 07:29 pm
If human-monkeys can have culture, monkey-humans can have culture.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 07:38 pm
Awwwww...!
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JoanneDorel
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 07:41 pm
Pif what a sweetie.
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Piffka
 
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Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 11:01 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfacts/factfiles/images_small/baboon08_sm.jpg

Seattle Times reports today... Saturday, May 08, 2004

Quote:
Once Rowdy Baboon Troop Now Follows Path of Peace

By Sue Goetinck Ambrose
... In 2004, the flower-power award may go to a troop of (Olive) baboons.

Researchers have found that a group of baboons living in Kenya has gone from nasty to sweet.
"... the first time anyone has seen anything resembling manners passed between generations in wild animals.

...findings are part of a growing body of evidence contradicting older notions that violence and aggression in humans and their primate cousins are inevitable.

"It would be great if people come out of here thinking there's more flexibility, there's more capacity to make the world a better place," said Robert Sapolsky, who led the study. "If ... (baboons) can do it, maybe we can, too."

Sapolsky, a neuroscientist at Stanford University, and colleague Lisa Share documented the peace movement in a troop of olive baboons that lives in Kenya's Masai Mara Game Reserve....


I've heard baboons rival chimpanzees in aggression, unlike the more gentle Orangs, Gorillas, and Bonobos, so this is good news, even if it is a month old -- reported originally in the Public Library of Science: Biology.

Quote:
Reports exist of transmission of culture in nonhuman primates. We examine this in a troop of savanna baboons studied since 1978. During the mid-1980s, half of the males died from tuberculosis; because of circumstances of the outbreak, it was more aggressive males who died, leaving a cohort of atypically unaggressive survivors. A decade later, these behavioral patterns persisted. Males leave their natal troops at adolescence; by the mid-1990s, no males remained who had resided in the troop a decade before. Thus, critically, the troop's unique culture was being adopted by new males joining the troop. We describe (a) features of this culture in the behavior of males, including high rates of grooming and affiliation with females and a "relaxed" dominance hierarchy; (b) physiological measures suggesting less stress among low-ranking males; (c) models explaining transmission of this culture; and (d) data testing these models, centered around treatment of transfer males by resident females.

(Received November 14, 2003; Accepted February 18, 2004; Published April 13, 2004)
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Acquiunk
 
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Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 12:18 pm
This "sweet" baboon behavior will last only as long as overly teststeroned males do not move in. Once one does, who finds that overly aggressive behavior offers an advantage, it will be back to "normal" baboon behavior.The reason is that the calmer, "sweeter" baboons have no way of institutionalizing their less agressive behavior. That is what culture allows and they are still at the mercy of their own, and others genes.
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Piffka
 
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Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 03:19 pm
Well, the continuity of the less-aggressive behavior is a new question and will probably be carefully looked at in the coming years. I thought it was interesting that the research paper also speculated briefly on the future of young males from this troop. What happens when they join another that is more traditionally aggressive? Lots of avenues for more research.

Quote:
A converse issue concerns circumstances that might destroy the F93-96 culture. The culture might be destroyed if numerous males transfer into the troop simultaneously, or if a male transfers in who, rather than assuming the F93-96 culture, instead takes advantage of it. Game theory suggests that F93-96 would be vulnerable to such "cheating."

Another issue concerns the fate of natal males from F93-96 when they transfer elsewhere. Reciprocal altruism models (Axelrod and Hamilton, 1981) suggest that if one F93-96 male transfers elsewhere and continues his natal behavioral style, he will be at a competitive disadvantage. However, should two F93-96 males simultaneously join another troop and maintain F93-96-typical interactions between them, they might be at a competitive advantage. This might represent a means to transmit this social style between troops.
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patiodog
 
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Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 03:35 pm
Of course, the same dynamic can be observed in small human social groupings.
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Piffka
 
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Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 04:27 pm
I dunno... the women I know won't put up with much of that. Very Happy Overly-aggressive guys are firmly shown the door.

I guess that's why I enjoyed this study... <grin>
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dlowan
 
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Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 06:58 pm
This is very interesting - thank you Piffka - I will have a good read!
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