0
   

Do Primates have culture?

 
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:05 am
When they found the monolith. Duh.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 01:47 pm
Quote:
When they found the monolith. Duh.
Very Happy Very Happy

rufio wrote:
Yes, monkies (or apes) passing practices that they have learned onto their young is cultural, but they do that already, whether they know sign language or not. And there hasn't been a huge amount of success at teaching apes to sign anyway. If an entire group of apes were to absorb the use of sign language from humans, it would become part of their culture - but the few apes that have been successfully taught are kept in research facilities, so it's very unlikely. Razz


I'm not sure you can say that with much authority, Rufio. In fact, there has been a lot of success in teaching great apes to sign.

What I know about this is that the chimpanzees get larger and stronger and more aggressive as they mature. The close-knit and affectionate relationship they had with humans as youngsters becomes muddled as they age. Chimpanzees can learn a lot of ASL words, enough to describe their world, but they cannot physically articulate sounds well enough to ever speak English. Meanwhile, the ASL training needs to take place in a close, personalized way (just as it would for human children). For the best trainers, there were ethics involved. In fact, the people who were most successful in working with the chimpanzees did not want to subject any more animals to the limbo-world in which the four remaining ASL-speaking adults currently live. It is expected that the facilites at CWU will be closed off when those four die.

As for Koko, the gorilla. She is a gentle giant. The most poignant fact of this ASL-speaking great ape to me has always been her request for feline friends. So far there have been several kittens who've kept her company and grown to adulthood. According to the Koko website: "Koko understands approximately 2,000 words of spoken English. Koko initiates the majority of conversations with her human companions and typically constructs statements averaging three to six words. Koko has a tested IQ of between 70 and 95 on a human scale, where 100 is considered 'normal.'"

Again, the ethics of research and impersonalized laboratory lives for such intelligent creatures must be considered.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 02:12 pm
truth
Patiodog, the name you've adopted confirms your preference to "animalize the anthropos." Laughing
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:07 pm
I haven't heard of very many who have been taught, actually - have you? And the ones I have heard don't have anything like a kind of syntax, nor are their movements as controlled as any human speaker of ASL. ASL, as a human language, is restricted to humans. What the apes speak might be termed a creole, not ASL, but that doesn't mean that they aren't capable of language - just not human language. They are, after all, not human.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:16 pm
PDiddie - what a post!

One is reminded of poor Washoe, consigned to a zoo with other chimps, and seeming not to fit in either world.

I wonder if the formation of a troupe, perhaps with the females only being worked with re signing might be the way to go, since the possibilities of this work seem so exciting, and it is, I think, the males who become far more aggressive - though, from their point of view they are, of course, just attempting dominance.

Perhaps a slowly formed group of the much gentler bonobos or gorillas would work?

The creation of new meanings from groupings of signs initiated by the apes seem to me the most fascinating part - that they create words for themselves - I wish I could find my books on this - my damn library is so disorganized!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:17 pm
I love your posts, Patiopup!!!!!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:35 pm
I will tell my tale of Flo, from Jane Goodall's first research group - re the crucial natur eof good parenting in the animal world - and its transmission to the next generation - just as it is in humans.

Flo was the matriarch of one of the first groups Goodall worked with - and she raised many babies over the years, watched closely by the researchers.

Flo was quite old, and no beauty, but she was the dominant female, albeit a very relaxed one - her oestrus was always greeted with enormous excitement by the boys - everyone wanted a date with Flo!

She was a loving, competent, very relaxed mother - happy to let her babies explore and well able to nurture and protect them, so many of her babies survived. Her kids stayed in close contact with her, and with each other - and were calm, confident animals. The goils made good mummies in their turn, and the guys, with each other's assistance, became the dominant group in the troupe - one of them was the dominant male. One brother, even with an arm crippled by polio, achieved high status, because of his relationship with his brothers, and his won strength of "character". As dominant males, Flo's boys were quite benevolent and nurturing - seldom being bullies, as many male chimps can be - and well able to maintain their status without constant aggression.

Her last baby, born when she was rather old and unwell, was sadly spoiled, with Flo seeming not to have the energy to discipline him (I think 'twas a fella?) - however, she maintained her dominance, so other mothers did not dare to take matters into their own hands!

There is a rather sad account given of a common playground occurrence - the babies would come together to play - with the mums and sisters watching - Flo's last kid would behave as spoiled kids do - becoming aggressive and rude. Eventually, the mums would have enough - and they would drag their protesting kids off by the hands, while they wailed and struggled. Flo's boy would likewise be wailing and protesting, unable to understand why his fun had come to an end.

When his mum died, this by then adolescent chimp pined to death in a tree beside his mother's body - despite the efforts of his siblings to get him to come with them.

Goodall et al describe other, less confident and competent and nurturing mothers - whose babies grew up - if they survived (and less of them did) - as lower status, nervous, and often poor mummies themselves. The males raised in less secure families might well be less benevolent leaders, if they became dominant - the Hitlers and Mussolinis of the ape world - since they seemed to need to demonstrate their dominance with far more aggression.

So, it seems we have family cultures within chimp families - which may come to affect whole troupes, if the males become dominant!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:40 pm
And here is Flo herself!

http://images.google.com.au/images?q=tbn:hiSWisuGnywJ:www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/about/media/goodall/assets/11-JGimage.jpg
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:42 pm
Oh, Flo... Flo made quite an impression on me. Love Flo.

I have "The Chimpanzees of Gombe", great big book, lots on Flo.

Gotta go look at MY library for Koko stuff... just a sec...
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 07:42 pm
Damn!!!!!

Well, she can be seen here!!!

http://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/about/media/goodall/assets/11-JGimage.jpg
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 08:06 pm
OK, this is actually my daughter's: "Signs of the Apes, Songs of the Whales."

In terms of Thomas' specific question:

Quote:
Because gorillas' large fingers are not as agile as a human's or a chimp's, they have trouble making some of the signs in ASL. Penny calls Koko's version of the signs "Gorilla Sign Language," or "GSL."


:-? That's what I remember from videos, very rough and unrefined, but still understandable, yes. The GSL thing is too cutesy, I don't like it.

One thing I'm very curious about is if any of these chimps/ Gorillas have been taught ASL. What I clearly remember about seeing Penny sign was that she wasn't using any grammar at all -- she was doing those cute little individual "pretty" signs. (It is a cliche in the Deaf community that hearing people say "Oh ASL is so beeeyouteeful!" and then are all dancy and pretty about it when they sign, completely agrammatically. There are specific grammatical rules that are not always pretty.)

Anyway, more on Koko. Interesting point about IQ tests:

Quote:
To get some idea of Koko's intelligence, Penny tested the gorilla on the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale -- the standard test for children. The test is, of course, designed for humans; so the questions might not be ones a gorilla would know how to answer. For instance, one question asked Koko to point to two things that are good to eat. She looked at pictures of a toy block, an apple, a shoe, a flower, and an ice cream sundae. Which two would you choose? Which two do you think Koko wanted to eat? [Remember, a kid's book.]

She picked the apple and the flower, showing her gorilla tastes and experience. She had never seen an ice cream sundae.

Another question asked her where she would run to get out of the rain. The choices: a hat, a spoon, a tree, and a house. You would probably choose the house. Koko chose the tree.


Quote:
While lounging in some white blankets that had just come back from the laundry, she signed, "RED RED." The teacher signed back, "THERE'S NO RED THERE. THOSE ARE WHITE." Koko signed, "RED" again. The teacher and Koko argued back and forth in signs, one saying white and the other saying red. Finally, Koko pulled a small piece of red lint from the white blanket to prove she was right. Both of them laughed, Koko even grunting out loud... later, Koko pulled the same joke on Penny.


Quote:
When she was 4 1/2 years old, Koko was asked to show off her ability to imitate human behavior in another way for a visitor. Penny pointed to her own eye, and Koko responded by touching her own ear. Penny tried again, touching her nose. Koko touched her chin. "BAD GORILLA," Penny signed. "FUNNY GORILLA," Koko answered.


There is a box with "What does Koko Mean?" and word combinations you're supposed to guess with answers on the next page... I'll combine.

COOKIE ROCK = a stale sweet roll
EYE HAT = A halloween mask
FINGER BRACELET = A ring
WHITE TIGER = zebra
ELEPHANT BABY = A pinocchio doll [Ha, took me a minute -- big nose.]

Quote:
One day when a reporter was visiting, Penny asked [Koko] in sign language, "ARE YOU AN ANIMAL OR A PERSON?" Koko responded: "FINE ANIMAL GORILLA."
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 08:48 pm
Rufio, I have nowhere proposed that great apes are human or that they speak a human language. They can be shown to communicate using a form of sign language. It is not, I hope, an offense to humans who use ASL any more than it should be an offense to computer-users that computers are used in various animal-intelligence research projects.

I have been following the training of chimpanzees and gorillas since I was a University student studying animal behavior. I've studied the Liontailed Macaques at the Woodland Park Zoo and spent hours observing the Siamang (Gibbon) group which used to reside at the Pt. Defiance Zoo. I have also visited the chimpanzees at CWU and read the research that is readily available. I am certainly no expert if that is what you were wondering. I do have a respect and appreciation for the intelligence of animals. Their abilities can be stunning.

Starting in the late 50's, several people had some success with teaching symbolic forms to chimpanzees. For many, the chimpanzees were strictly animals and after the experiments, the chimpanzees would either be sold to medical research labs or sacrificed. A young chimpanzee used to be worth $15,000 or more... haven't checked the price lately, but they were considered extremely valuable and beyond the sympathetic purchase by individuals. The most successful research was done when the chimpanzees and other great apes were educated as though they were children (idiot children, perhaps) but when they were dealt with as individuals. Many researchers ran into ethical problems. In many ways this can be an ugly form of research. If the animals are not treated as intelligent individuals, then they cannot be taught as well. (Please see the link and quote at the end of this post.) At the same time once you see a great ape as an individual it is hard to sell it or kill it with your eyes wide open.

The military had some interest in an extraordinarily strong animal that could receive instruction... however chimpanzees are fearful and unwilling warriors and were not tractable in this way. Since the military (who is the main source of funding for large-scale projects of this kind) could readily see that there was no advantage to teaching animals who were costly and in serious danger of extinction anyway, they lost interest and quit funding most research soon after the chimpanzee space flights.

However, an incidental gain from the (Project Mercury space) program was the demonstration that the young chimpanzee can be trained to be a highly reliable subject for space-flight studies. (From NASA History files.)

On another note, the military does maintain an active funding for dolphin and toothed whale research including the training of animals that can set bombs and tracking devices on selected vessels.

___________

from: Behavioral and Brain Sciences Online
The Emergence of a New Paradigm in Ape Language Research

Quote:
...we have to absorb the implications of the startling advances that have been made in ALR (Ape Language Research). In addition to the surprising number of symbols and syntactical patterns that bonobos have mastered, it is also important to note that they have demonstrated the ability to play games that are based on complex rules; engage in sophisticated make-believe and role-playing; solve complex tasks imitatively and creatively; perform remarkably well on match-to-sample tasks (even when the instructions are delivered through earphones or by different speakers); deal easily with simple Theory of Mind tasks; and even engage in normative behaviours such as justifying or explaining their own actions, or trying to teach or correct another ape's actions (see Savage-Rumbaugh, Shanker & Taylor 1998; Shanker & Taylor 2001). One might object that such studies tell us little about natural great ape abilities, insofar as it is only human intervention that has enabled apes to rise to these cognitive and communicative levels (see Tomasello 1999). But then, that is surely the point of such studies; for by demonstrating the plasticity of great ape capacities, we are learning about the significance of caregiving practices for nonhuman primate development.

Taking all these factors together we can see how, far from being fixed and invariant, great ape communicative behaviours in the wild, as well as in research facilities, are carefully nurtured and culturally variable. In place of the information-processing model that has hitherto dominated the study of ape communication and ALR, therefore, we believe that it is imperative that we shift to a dynamic systems paradigm, which places the emphasis on the dyad rather than the isolated individual; which sees great ape communication as a co-regulated activity rather than a linear and discrete sequence; which focuses on the creativity of ape communicative behaviours rather than treating them as phenotypic traits; which is better able to account for both the social complexity and the developmental character of nonhuman primate communicative abilities; and which looks at how language skills emerge as a means of co-regulating and augmenting such primal activities as sharing, requesting, imitating, and playing.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:04 pm
Why would anyone argue that they are human?

Must animals be human to have their complexity and intelligence and sensitivity recognized?

They are what they are - but we are only beginning to know what that is/might be - just as we are for ourselves.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:22 pm
Oh wow... all those other posts while I was laboring so hard over mine.

Sozobe, don't you just LOVE "Cookie Rock?"

Thanks for bringing up Flo, dlowan. I'd forgotten about her and she was a real character, even having a fatal flaw, as all characters should have, with that awful and disastrous spoiling of her last offspring. Funny when you think about it, the three most widely known great apes are Flo, Washoe and Koko... all female. Makes you think, y'know?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:30 pm
I thought washoe was a boy?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:35 pm
And let us not forget King Kong, the greatest, most sexually frustrated, ape of them all!!!!
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:37 pm
Washoe was definitely female... and "adopted" a young male to whom she taught her version of ASL. Washoe, btw, was named for Washoe County, where the University of Nevada at Reno is located and where she had her early education.

Here's a website that includes the biographies of the four remaining ASL Chimpanzees: Chimpanzee Human Communications Institute, chimpanzee bios.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:41 pm
Wow! Thankee!
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2004 09:43 pm
Here's an eye-opening list... the things that can be donated for the four chimpanzees to use and occupy their time. It sounds like a list for a nursery school!

Chimpanzee Enrichment
Object Enrichment at CHCI
The following list of enrichment items are always needed at the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute for the daily enrichment of Washoe and her family.

"We can only use new unopened items with the exception of those items that can be sanitized by washing ie. stuffed toys, clothing, etc.. Please remember for the safety of the chimpanzees: no glass, no batteries, no electronics, no toxins, and no small parts."

Balloons
Lotion
Purses
Blankets
Magazines
Raisins
Brushes
Make-up
Shoes
Bubbles
Masks
Sheets
Candy
Non-toxic paints
Spices
Chalk
Paintbrushes
String
Colored Pencils
Party plates & cups
Stuffed Animals
Construction Paper
Picture books
Sunglasses -with plastic lenses
Crayons
Plastic kitchen utensils
Tablecloths
Dolls
Plastic Mirrors
Tablespoons
Dress-up clothes
Play balls
Tissue packs
Emery Boards
Play cleaning supplies
Toothbrushes - new
Finger Paint
Play-Doh
Toothpaste
Food Coloring
Play plastic tools
Toys
Hats
Play Pots & pans
Velcro
Holiday decorations
Posters
Inflatable toys
Poster Paper
Laundry baskets

Send enrichment items to:

The Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute
400 East 8th Avenue
Ellensburg, Washington 98926-7573
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2004 12:05 am
Yeah, I thought Washoe had a baby....

Anyway, dlowan, I'm not saying they have to be human to be intelligent. In fact, I'm saying that they don't need to be human or be able to speak human language in order to be intelligent or have culture.

Sozobe - re IQ tests, that kind of thing is exactly what I mean when I was saying before that IQ tests are culturally biased.

Piffka, I think I get the gist of your post - they want to study HOW the apes communicate rather than whether they can use specific human means of communicating? I think that would be about right - even when you study human cultures, you don't study what parts of your culture they can or cannot master, or even specifically what elements you see in their culture, but how the elements of their culture that they already possess are used in daily activities. That's why I don't see any reason behind research that teaches apes ASL or how to use computers. It obviously would not be amiss to teach them something like GSL which sozobe talked about, for the purpose of communication with the human observers, but guaging them by their "progress" in learning human langauges doesn't accomplish anything.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/01/2024 at 09:29:58