Do Primates have culture?

dlowan, I think you are correct 99.9 percent. Wink

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Quote:

Gorillas have been seen for the first time using simple tools to perform tasks in the wild, researchers say.

Scientists described how gorillas in forests in Congo used sticks to test the depth of muddy water and to cross swampy areas.

The head of the US and German team said the discovery would cast new light on how humans and other species evolved.

Captive gorillas have been known to use tools, but scientists say they are merely copying their human captors.

'Valuable insights'

The scientists said they had seen gorillas use tools to navigate swampy ground.

One gorilla reportedly used a stick to test the depth of a puddle in her path.

Another is said to have been seen using a tree trunk as a support while digging for herbs, and as a bridge to cross swampy ground.

"This is a truly astounding discovery," team leader Thomas Breuer said in a statement quoted by the Associated Press news agency.

"Tool usage in wild apes provides us with valuable insights into the evolution of our own species and the abilities of other species," he said.

Gorillas are an endangered species, with many of their African habitats under threat from conflict, illegal hunting and logging.

The scientists' findings have been published in the online journal, PLoS Biology.

Wild gorillas seen to use tools

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Wow! Thanks Satt fs.

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A question is readily raised:
Are those instances of tool usage learned behavior accumulated in groups of gorillas, or individual and isolated behaviors?
Scientists may determine which is the case.

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Hmm, well, in chimps the experienced tool users terach the young.

I suppose some genius primate (usually female, I have read) makes the leap to a new tool from time to time!

Different chimp troops have different tools and ways of using them, sometimes, which are transmitted to the young.

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satt_fs beat me to the link.

Am I prejudiced or do most of the primates who initiate tool users seem to be female?

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satt_fs wrote:

Wild gorillas seen to use tools

I'm not all that surprised. Did anyone really think that Gorilla's didn't use tools at all?

Even birds use tools.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Even birds use tools.

The point to be noted is whether tool use is an individual behavior or a behavior taught by others.

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satt_fs wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
Even birds use tools.

The point to be noted is whether tool use is an individual behavior or a behavior taught by others.

Besides being interesting in and of itself, why is it imporant to know whether tool use is taught by others?

Even if it is taught by others, at one time it must have been learned by an individual.

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If one could define culture as a "learned behavior", gorillas which are using tools through learning from others have a culture.
It has yet to be confirmed.

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satt_fs wrote:

If one could define culture as a "learned behavior", gorillas which are using tools through learning from others have a culture.

Ah. I see.

Thanks.

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My pleasure.
Gorillas and chimpanzees may not be very different from humans after all. The main difference may be in the tastes for their dwellings, or environments they choose to live in.

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In primates it certainly is.

Birds certainly learn from each other.

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satt_fs wrote:

My pleasure.
Gorillas and chimpanzees may not be very different from humans after all. The main difference may be in the tastes for their dwellings, or environments they choose to live in.

You mean like a Gorilla chooses to live in a nest of leaves in a rain forrest and a Human chooses to build a city and live in a penthouse on park avenue?

It seems to me that there is a very large difference between Pongidae and Hominidae (Apes and Humans).

I love animals and I have a great respect for the intelligence and emotional stature of Gorilla's and Chimps. But just because the gap is small doesn't mean the chasm isn't deep. We are deeply and profoundly different from our sweet cousins, no matter how many similarities we choose to see.

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Sure we are different.

And your nest/house analogy is, indeed, superficially demeaning to the apes.

What IS being discussed is not that they are like us, but that they have the beginnings of a learned culture.

Your hyperbole ridicules via a straw man.

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dlowan wrote:

Sure we are different.

And your nest/house analogy is, indeed, superficially demeaning to the apes.

How so?

The fact that we do one thing and apes do another is not demeaning to apes. There is no glory in being what we are and no rebuke in being what they are. We are simply different in this way; very different.

dlowan wrote:

What IS being discussed is not that they are like us, but that they have the beginnings of a learned culture.

Fine.

My comment was in response to Satt's quote. It was not intended as commentary on the whole thread. The question of culture is one I don't know the answer to yet and will probably depend greatly on the definition of culture.

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As tigers are different from cats in a house, gorillas are different from humans, of course. We have evolved differently. However I suspect that one of the elements of determining the direction of the evolution of humans might have been our preference for savannah to jungles.

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<listening, posting that I am so you know the group is not all so small...>

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tool using has been observed regularly in apes (and some have been quoted here) - on the news last night was film of a gorilla using a stout stick to help her cross a deep river safely ( to lean on, not as a bridge)

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Do Primates have culture?

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