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Americans : Do you know anyone that considers Israel an ally ?

 
 
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2013 03:28 am
Young or adult
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Type: Question • Score: 0 • Views: 2,605 • Replies: 47

 
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2013 07:06 pm
@TomBecker89,
Huh? Just about everyone I know. Might be one or two exceptions, but they're not close friends so I really don't know their exact feelings. What are you on about?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2013 07:11 pm
@TomBecker89,
Yeah....me, too.

Most people I know consider them an ally.

I think most people I know also consider them to be an anvil around our neck also...the cause of much trouble for us in the Middle East.

But for certain, most of the people I know consider them to be an ally.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 Sep, 2013 07:16 pm
@TomBecker89,
Most Americans I know support Israel completely without thinking. To me it is sad to support anyone without thinking. The news in the US about Israel is very one sided, telling the Israeli government's story without giving any credence to the way the Palestinians have suffered.

There are some of us who really understand both sides of the story and have sympathy to the plight of the Palestinians living in refugee camps or the occupied territories. We really are few and far between.

Almost every American will repeat the shibboleths, "Israel is our best ally", "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East" and "America will always defend Israel". And most Americans swallow these lines without even thinking about the suffering of people in the occupied territories due to the actions of Israel.

To ask if any American considers Israel an ally is, at least to me, a ridiculous question.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 01:41 pm
@TomBecker89,
All most everyone in the US consider Israel an ally and a useful ally at that.

In that regards, only the UK is likely to have a higher standing with the American public.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Sep, 2013 11:50 pm
Have any of you heard of the USS Liberty. Google it and read more than one site about it.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 04:12 am
@RABEL222,
Quote:
USS Liberty.


Yes of course and I had posted about it however one happening does not change the overall picture.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 10:05 am
@BillRM,
What if the attacker had been a Russian or Chinese? This would have been in every US paper as a murderous attack on our military. But since it was an "ally" all our politicians and news sources jumped through hoops to explain how it was a mistake. Even though they have recordings of Isralie pilots saying it was an american ship and were told by higher command to sink it anyway. I guess I dont understand todays definition of ally. Read the nongovernment explanation of what really happened to the Liberty.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 10:15 am
@RABEL222,
LOL do you think we was in love with our ally the USSR during World War Two?

The Royal Navy sunk most of the French fleet in harbor also during that war a hell of a thing to do to an ally killing thousands of French sailors.

Would need to look it up but I would not be surprise if the British killed more French sailors then the Japanese killed Americans at Pearl Harbor.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 11:08 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:

There are some of us who really understand both sides of the story and have sympathy to the plight of the Palestinians living in refugee camps or the occupied territories. We really are few and far between.


Yes, without a doubt the average American thinks of Israel as an ally on a certain level, after all, our government refers to the Zionist nation as such all the time. There is much concern in congress over Israel's national security, we share many classified secrets with them. The average American doesn't seem that interested enough to follow closely events in the middle east and since our media is bias, one-sided regarding the Israeli/Palestinian issue, Americans are really in no true position to ascertain for certainty whether Israel is an ally or not. They only reflect what they hear from our congressional people and the government who're always saying "Israel is our closest ally." The US says this about France, Britain, etc.

Let's reverse this: one wonders if Israel considers the US an ally or a useful tool or possibly both? Israel wants the US to attack Iran's nuclear facility; Israel wanted the US to attack Iraq, and we did. Israel needs the US to always veto a UN vote against them while they continue to steal Palestinian land. I do know the powerful US is very useful to the tiny modern nation who is unable to function as a neighbor should within its neighborhood. Israel, as far as the eye can see, will always attract problems because it will continue to expand its land base.....the US will jump in to help if it finds Israel cornered. Meanwhile useful America has given the Zionist nation the military edge of over every country in the area, and Israel with the help of other countries and particularly the United States, is a nuclear state and the greatest power of all in the middle east.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 11:21 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
is very useful to the tiny modern nation who is unable to function as a neighbor should within its neighborhood.


I lost count, maybe you can tell me, how many times had Arab nations armies crossed their borders looking to wipe them out of existence?

Seem like they are in the same kind of a situation as a black family surrounded by neighbors that belong to the KKK.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 11:21 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

The Royal Navy sunk most of the French fleet in harbor also during that war a hell of a thing to do to an ally killing thousands of French sailors.


Vichy France was not an ally.
Lordyaswas
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 11:36 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:



The Royal Navy sunk most of the French fleet in harbor also during that war a hell of a thing to do to an ally killing thousands of French sailors.

Would need to look it up but I would not be surprise if the British killed more French sailors then the Japanese killed Americans at Pearl Harbor.



Ha! The A2K history professor strikes again.

I'd graduate to books with writing in if I were you, Bill.
Or go back to the porch and carry on whittling that pipe for your grandpappy.

What a prize tosser!
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 11:39 am
@RABEL222,
Excerpts from:


Chapter 7 by Paul Findley
"THE ASSAULT ON ASSAULT"...The USS Liberty
(This article is rather longish and I did not post it all; I would suggest printing it out for later reading. The book "Deliberate Deceptions" with all the contents may also be gotten from one's local library.)

Certain facts are clear. The attack was no accident. The Liberty was assaulted in broad daylight by Israeli forces who knew the ship's identity.(2) The Liberty, an intelligence- gathering ship, had no combat capability and carried only light machine guns for defense. A steady breeze made its U.S. flag easily visible. The assault occurred over a period of nearly two hours--first by air, then by torpedo boat. The ferocity of the attacks left no doubt: the Israeli forces wanted the ship and its crew destroyed.
The public, however, was kept in the dark. Even before the American public learned of the attack, U.S. government officials began to promote an account of the assault that was satisfactory to Israel. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee worked through congressmen to keep the story under control. The president of the United States, Lyndon B. Johnson, ordered and led a cover-up so thorough that sixteen years after he left office, the episode was still largely unknown to the public--and the men who suffered and died have gone largely unhonored.
The day of the attack began in routine fashion, with the ship first proceeding slowly in an easterly direction in the eastern Mediterranean, later following the contour of the coastline westerly about fifteen miles off the Sinai Peninsula. On the mainland, Israeli forces were winning smashing victories in the third Arab-Israeli war in nineteen years. Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin, announcing that the Israelis had taken the entire Sinai and broken the blockade on the Strait of Tiran, declared: "The Egyptians are defeated."(3) On the eastern front, the Israelis had overcome Jordanian forces and captured most of the West Bank.

At 6:00 A.M. an airplane, identified by the Liberty crew as an Israeli Noratlas, slowly circled the ship, then departed. At 9:00 A.M., a jet appeared at a distance, then to the left of the ship.(4) At 10:00 A.M., two rocket-armed jets circled the ship three times. They were close enough for their pilots to be observed through binoculars. The planes were unmarked. An hour later the Israeli Noratlas returned, flying not more than 200 feet directly above the Liberty and clearly marked with the Star of David. The ship's crew members and the pilot waved at each other. The plane returned every few minutes until 1:00 P.M. By then, the ship had changed course and was proceeding almost due west.

At 2:00 P.M., all hell broke loose. Three Israeli Mirage fighter planes headed straight for the Liberty, their rockets taking out the forward machine guns and wrecking the ship's antennae. The Mirages were joined by Mystere fighters, which dropped napalm on the bridge and deck and repeatedly strafed the ship. The attack continued for more than twenty minutes. In all, the ship sustained 821 holes in her sides and decks. Of these, more than 100 were rocket-sized.

As the aircraft departed, three torpedo boats took over the attack, firing five torpedoes, one of which tore a forty-foot hole in the hull, killing 25 sailors. The ship was in flames, dead in the water, listing precariously, and taking on water. The crew was ordered to prepare to abandon ship. As life rafts were lowered into the water, the torpedo boats moved closer and shot them to pieces. One boat concentrated machine gun fire on rafts that were still on deck as crew members there tried to extinguish the napalm fires. Petty Officer Charles Rowley declares, "They didn't want anyone to live."

At 3:15 P.M., the last shot was fired, leaving the vessel a combination morgue and hospital. The ship had no engines, no power, no rudder. Fearing further attack, Captain McGonagle, despite severe leg injuries, stayed at the bridge. An Israeli helicopter, its open bay door showing troops in battle gear and a machine gun mounted in an open doorway, passed close to the deck, then left. Other aircraft came and went during the next hour.

U.S. air support never arrived. The USS SARATOGA was only thirty minutes away, and, with a squadron of fighter planes on deck ready for a routine operation, it was prepared to respond to an attack almost instantly. But the rescue never occurred. Without approval by Washington, the planes could not take aggressive action, even to rescue a U.S. ship confirmed to be under attack. Admiral Donald Engen, then captain of the USS AMERICA, a second U.S. carrier in the vicinity, later explained: "President Johnson had very strict control. Even though we knew the Liberty was under attack, I couldn't just go and order a rescue."(5) The ship's planes were hardly in the air when the voice of Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara was heard over Sixth Fleet radios: "Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately."(6) They were ordered to have no part in destroying or driving off the attackers.

Shortly after 3:00 P.M., nearly an hour after the Liberty's plea was first heard, the White House gave momentary approval to a rescue mission, and planes from both carriers were launched. At almost precisely the same instant, the Israeli government informed the U.S. naval attache in Tel Aviv that its forces had "erroneously attacked a U.S. ship" after mistaking it for an Egyptian vessel, and offered "abject apologies." With the apology in hand, Johnson once again ordered U.S. aircraft back to their carriers.

When the second launch occurred, there were no Israeli forces to "destroy or drive away." Fifteen hours of lonely struggle to keep the wounded alive and the vessel afloat were ahead for the Liberty and its ravaged crew. Not until dawn of the next day would the Liberty see a U.S. plane or ship. The only friendly visit was from a small Soviet warship. Its offer of help was declined, but the Soviets said they would stand by in case need should arise.

The next morning, two U.S. destroyers arrived with medical and repair assistance. Soon the wounded were transferred to the carrier hospital by helicopter. The battered ship then proceeded to Malta, where a navy Court of Inquiry was to be held. The inquiry itself was destined to be a part of an elaborate program to keep the public from knowing what had really happened.
In fact, the cover-up began almost at the precise moment that the Israeli assault ended. The apology from Israeli officials reached the White House moments after the last gun fired at the Liberty. President Johnson accepted and publicized the condolences of Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, even though readily available information showed the Israeli account to be false; the CIA had learned a day before the attack that the Israelis planned to sink the ship.(7) Nevertheless, congressional comments largely echoed the president's inter- pretation of the assault, and the nation was caught up in euphoria over Israel's stunning victories over the Arabs. The casualties on the Liberty got scant attention. Smith Hempstone, foreign correspondent for the WASHINGTON STAR, wrote from Tel Aviv, "In a week since the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, not one single Israeli of the type which this correspondent encounters many times daily--cab drivers, censors, bartenders, soldiers--has bothered to express sorrow for the deaths of these Americans."(8)
The Pentagon staved off reporters' inquiries with the promise of a "comprehensive statement" once the official inquiry, conducted by Admiral Isaac Kidd, was finished.(9) Arriving at Malta, Kidd gave explicit orders to the crew: "Answer no questions. If somehow you are backed into a corner, then you may say that it was an accident and that Israel has apologized. You may say nothing else." Crew members were assured they could talk freely to reporters once the summary of the Court of Inquiry was made public. This was later modified. They were then ordered not to provide information beyond the precise words of the published summary.

The court was still taking testimony when a charge that the attack had been deliberate appeared in the U.S. press.(10) An ASSOCIATED PRESS story filed from Malta reported that "senior crewmen" on the ship were convinced the Israelis knew the ship was American before they attacked. "We were flying the Stars and Stripes and it's absolutely impossible that they shouldn't know who we were," a crew member said. The navy disputed the story, saying the United States "thoroughly accepted the Israeli apology."

With the testimony completed, Admiral Kidd handcuffed himself to a huge box of records and flew to Washington where they were examined by Chief of Naval Operations Admiral McDonald, as well as by congressional leaders before the long-awaited summary statement was issued.(11) When it was finally released, it was far from comprehensive.(12) It made no attempt to fix blame, focusing instead almost entirely on the actions of the crew.

The censored summary did not reveal that the ship had been under close aerial surveillance by Israel for hours before the attack, or that during the preceding twenty-four hours Israel had repeatedly warned U.S. authorities to move the Liberty.(13) It contained nothing to dispute the notion of mistaken identity. The navy erroneously reported that the attack lasted only six minutes instead of seventy minutes, and falsely asserted that all firing stopped when the torpedo boats came close enough to identify the U.S. flag. The navy made no mention of napalm or of life rafts being shot up. It even suppressed records of the strong breeze that made the ship's U.S. flag plainly visible.
The report did make one painful revelation: Before the attack, the Joint Chiefs of Staff had ordered the Liberty to move farther from the coast, but the message "was mi

Several newspapers criticized the Pentagon's summary. The NEW YORK TIMES said it "leaves a good many questions unanswered."(15) The WASHINGTON STAR used the word "cover-up," called the summary an "affront," and demanded a deeper and wider probe.(16) Senator J. William Fulbright, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, after a closed briefing by Secretary of State Dean Rusk, called the episode "very embarrassing." The STAR concluded: "Whatever the meaning of this, embarrassment is no excuse for disingenuousness."
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 11:45 am
@Moment-in-Time,
The reason the Liberty was attacked was to cover up a massacre perpetrated by the IDF. The French fleet was attacked so it couldn't be used by the Nazis. The French were given an ultimatum, and choices.
1 Sail to the UK.
2 Sail to the USA.
3 Scuttle the fleet.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 12:38 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Vichy France was not an ally.


That a damn good excused but this was right after France have a ceasefire agreement with Germany.

They was still was an ally if a defeated ally of the English at the time of the attack. Second the French navy commander had stated he would not allow his ships to fall into German hands.

Let see Vicky government assume power on July 10, 1940 ratifying the armistice and the merry English sunk their fleet on July 3, 1940 seven days before hand.

Cost in lives was 1,297 French military men.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 12:41 pm
@izzythepush,
Odd as the ships was in command of a man who stated he would sink his own fleet before handing it over to the Nazis and the agreement between the French and the Germany was that the ships would remain under French control.

Quote:


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-158380.html

On July 3, the British surrounded the French Fleet at the port of Mers-el-Kebir right outside Oran, Algeria. Churchill's message was clear: sail to Britain, sail to the USA, or scuttle your ships in the next six hours. At first, the French refused to speak to negotiators. Two hours later, the French showed the British an order they had received from Admiral Darlan instructing them to sail the ships to the USA if the Germans broke the armistice and demanded the ships.
British Navy surrounds French Fleet
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 12:55 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:

The reason the Liberty was attacked was to cover up a massacre perpetrated by the IDF. The French fleet was attacked so it couldn't be used by the Nazis. The French were given an ultimatum, and choices.
1 Sail to the UK.
2 Sail to the USA.
3 Scuttle the fleet.


You get no opposition from me, Izzy, in fact I'm willing to bet you're 100% right.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 01:37 pm
@BillRM,
Could you post a site that I could go to to read about this action? I was alive during this time but dont recall it.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Sep, 2013 01:45 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Thanks M I T. I have a hell of a time trying to figure out how to post articles and dont always have time to type them out. This article would have taken me a week to type out.
0 Replies
 
 

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