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If you were in charge in Iraq...

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 11:56 am
Edited my post above.

Oh, PD, I think McG was kidding ... his plans sound an awful lot like Saddam resurrected, tho ... :wink:
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 11:58 am
McGentrix wrote:
First, I would form a steering committee that equally represents the Shia's, Sunni's, and Kurds as well as men and women.

I would then gather all the local leaders and powerful clerics together and have them all executed to prove to the masses I am not to be trifled with.

Then, I would start selling Oil as a rogue state avoiding OPEC at all costs. With the money, I would start several socially progressive programs to show the masses I can be benevelant.

Then, I would take and rebuild my military and infrastructure to be able to defend my country without needing to worry over invading any of my neighbors to show the masses I can be peaceful.

Then, I would stamp out any fundamentalist Islamic organizations with the force of my new military. They will be offered an exit strategy and some money to leave, but if they choose to stay, no more bombings or suicides! Suicide bombers would have their remains thouroughly soaked in pig fat etc. to ensure the next bomber knows what will happen to his remains. This will show the masses I am serious.

Then, party time!

That's what I would do.



I'm gonna start callin' you Nicolo McMachiavelli . . . actually, from the personal point of view, a rational plan, with a high chance of success . . .
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:02 pm
Fedral wrote:
Titus wrote:
Democracy cannot be forced on a nation. Look at the history of US foreign policy over the years and you will see this to be true.



A democracy in one form or another is in place in:
Germany

Parliamentary government form 1848-1936. Hitler assumed power by manipulating the democratically elected parliament.

Quote:
Italy

Again, Italy's democratic government was manipulated by Mussolini to allow him to assume power.

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Japan

Japan't Diet had been put into place in the 1880s, and remained in place through WWII.

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All the above countries had some sort of totalitarian form of government until democracy was FORCED upon them by outside forces after the end of WW2.

All of your examples are false. For someone who claims to be a history major, you seem to do little research when posting historical topics.

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As much as you try to alter and revise history Titus, you cant escape the fact that democracy has been a great boon for the prosperity and standard of living for those countries.

I would agree. Germany's adoption of democracy was instrumental (under Bismark) in allowing it to transition from an agricultural to an industrial nation. Italy's unification and adoption of a parliament did the same. The saem can also be said for Japan, who modernized amazingly rapidly in the later 19th century.

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Does it negate all the good things that democracy has done for those countries because it was "forced" upon them?

The only nation that had democracy forced upon it, of the three, might be Japan, which had democracy, and other western values, imposed upon it from above. How much this forced westernization led to the excesses and imperialism of the early twentieth century is a hotly debated topic.

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The people of the Middle East need to understand that democracy is their ticket to the same level of prosperity that the West enjoys if they just give it a chance.

Or, might it be their ticket to disaster? I agree that one wil never know unless it is tried, but the liklihood of democracy in Iraq is minimal. The US overthrew the one near-eastern democracy, Iran, in the 1950s. We really don't have a great track record of supporting democracy.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:06 pm
ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:

When trying to keep thugs in line, one sometimes has to act thuggish.

And I meant the word "friendly" in a international diplomatic sense, not in a sense you use with your personal friends. There's a difference.


Hey, don't knock my manner of keeping friends, all I have to do is reach for my shotgun and they grovel like there's no tommorow. Mainly cause if they don't there really isn't.

But seriously, I do get what you are trying to say, I'd just avoid the stick approach and go for the carrot.

Our approach with Japan is a really really good model (though there are deep differences between the countries).
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:17 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Germany
Parliamentary government form 1848-1936.


That would be 1931 or 1932, wouldnt it?

'S OK, we all make mistakes, but better not be lecturing anyone else too much about "doing little research for someone claiming to be a history major" ...
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:19 pm
Re: If you were in charge in Iraq...
CerealKiller wrote:
Would you allow the people to elect an Islamic government? Would you allow the constitution to be based on Islamic law?

No to both. I would start them out with a democracy, establishing polling places and teaching people what democracy was all about. Then I would bring in thousands of international observers to ensure the first election was scrupulously fair. Then, once the Iraqis had a good taste of life out from under the boot heel of the mullahs, I would leave Iraq to the Iraqis. The first ayatollah who tried to take over the government after that would be ripped to pieces by the citizens.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:28 pm
Re: If you were in charge in Iraq...
Tarantulas wrote:
No to both. I would start them out with a democracy, establishing polling places and teaching people what democracy was all about. Then I would bring in thousands of international observers to ensure the first election was scrupulously fair. Then, once the Iraqis had a good taste of life out from under the boot heel of the mullahs, I would leave Iraq to the Iraqis.


What if, in all freedom and with 10,000 international observers approving the ballot, they voted in one of those "mullahs"?

After all, after decades of violently imposed Baathist secularism, the religious leaders are now the most trusted persons in the land. According to that ABC/BBC/etc poll last month, 70% of Iraqis trust their religious leaders "a great deal" or "quite a lot" - no other institution scored as high. The Iraqi Governing Council scored only 39% and the CPA 28%.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:30 pm
Or do you mean you would hold as many internationally-observed elections as it would take to get the Iraqis to try voting in someone else and see if you would leave then?

Not that that tactic is wholly unprecedented ... one thinks of Bosnia ... didnae really work there, tho.
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:30 pm
Hobit,
Indeed, both Germany and Italy HAD the frameworks of democracy, but their pillars were undermined by the totalitarian state and were reduced to 'rubber stamp' farces before they were disbanded.

As to Germany, one can argue that the start of the German democratic state was forced upon them by the Allied Powers after the end of WW One, although I will admit that my knowledge of this period is not extensive.

Japan could not have been called anything but a totalitarian state before the war.

Italy's parliament in it's current state is nothing like the weak 'semi-republic' that Mussolini ignored during his ascension to power.

The current incarnations of democracy in the above 3 countries WAS forced upon them by outsiders. Their Constitutions were designed to prevent a charismatic leader/dictator from ever taking control of their governments again.

THAT is the legacy we have in 'forcing' democracy.

I hope it works in Iraq ...
Only time will tell.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:37 pm
IIRC the government they are designing for Iraq is not a religious one. I don't know what would happen if they elected one of the ayatollahs President. I think they have it set up with a parliament or legislature of some kind, so that might limit the powers of a dictatorial President.

I think they said one of the biggest problems was trying to establish voting subdivisions and educate the people about how to vote. One big issue is whether men will allow their wives to vote too. They have a lot of catching up to do.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:42 pm
Fedral wrote:
Hobit,
Indeed, both Germany and Italy HAD the frameworks of democracy, but their pillars were undermined by the totalitarian state and were reduced to 'rubber stamp' farces before they were disbanded.

I would like to see evidence for your conclusions. Everything I haev seen on this issue would tend to disagree with you.

Quote:
As to Germany, one can argue that the start of the German democratic state was forced upon them by the Allied Powers after the end of WW One, although I will admit that my knowledge of this period is not extensive.

One could argue that, but one would be incorrect. Agin, I would like to see evidence, please.

Quote:
Japan could not have been called anything but a totalitarian state before the war.

Haev you done much Meiji and Showa Japanese history? For a quick overview, you might wish to peruse James McClain's Japan: A Modern History, (New York: Norton, 2003).

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Italy's parliament in it's current state is nothing like the weak 'semi-republic' that Mussolini ignored during his ascension to power.

BUt it was a representative government, which again invalidates your claim that no democracy existed prior to the end of WWII.

Quote:
The current incarnations of democracy in the above 3 countries WAS forced upon them by outsiders. Their Constitutions were designed to prevent a charismatic leader/dictator from ever taking control of their governments again.

Why didn't you say you meant their current models?

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THAT is the legacy we have in 'forcing' democracy.

If by "we," you mean the UK, the US, France, and the Soviet Union, then I would agree.

Quote:
I hope it works in Iraq ...
Only time will tell.

I hope it is given a chance to.

Nimh, I stand corrected. Very Happy
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:46 pm
Quote:
Then I would bring in thousands of international observers to ensure the first election was scrupulously fair.


I would rather see this happen here in the United States first before we begin exporting the Republicans' idea of 'fair'.

What's the Iraqi word for Diebold?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:48 pm
Quote:
What's the Iraqi word for Diebold?

Amrika.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 12:50 pm
The Arab word for Die Boldly is Jihad, I believe.

<joke>
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ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 01:28 pm
Quote:
But seriously, I do get what you are trying to say, I'd just avoid the stick approach and go for the carrot.


That's acceptable. But keep the stick in your pocket just in case they don't like the carrat.

Quote:
Our approach with Japan is a really really good model (though there are deep differences between the countries).


Agreed. One difference is that we have not defeated Iraq like we defeated Japan.

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So the rationalisation of American pre-emptive war has now deteriorated from "they had WMD that they could give to the terrorists who attacked us any moment now" to "thats just what happens if you're not friendly to the US"?


Don't read what's not there nimh. This refers specifically to the notion of keeping a new Iraq from devolving into the old Iraq, not as a blanket foreign policy.

Quote:
Note the near-instinctive equation of all those who are "not friendly to the US" with "thugs".


Again nimh, you're reading what's not there. Not ALL nations unfriendly to the US are thugs, but a bunch of tribal clerics trying to bring about there own version of a theology in Iraq are.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 01:31 pm
Quote:
Not ALL nations unfriendly to the US are thugs, but a bunch of tribal clerics trying to bring about there own version of a theology in Iraq are.

Of course, that is not what I and many others see in Iraq. What I see is a crafty firend of Iran (Sadr) taking charge of a partisan battle against an illegal occupier (the US).
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 01:49 pm
ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:
Don't read what's not there nimh. This refers specifically to the notion of keeping a new Iraq from devolving into the old Iraq


What "old Iraq"? Iraq wasn't a Muslim state before the Americans invaded it - it was a secular dictatorship. Apologies for the exasperation, but I wish you people would stop confusing IraQ with IraN, darn it.

Under Saddam, religious leaders were forced to kowtow to the dictator's line or "disappear". Its one of the reasons why people turn to religious leaders now - cause they're seen as the alternative to Saddamism as well as Americanism.

ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:
Not ALL nations unfriendly to the US are thugs, but a bunch of tribal clerics trying to bring about there own version of a theology in Iraq are.


Why? Christian-democracy once started as a bunch of (Catholic, Protestant) clerics winning elections by promoting their version of theology.

The definition of "thugs", as in, people we need to keep out of power by violence and occupation if need be, should be based on behaviour, not ideology.

If they start persecuting the opposition etc, they're thugs. If they win the elections through anti-American rhetorics, but reasonably keep to the rules of the democratic game, they're not. IMHO.

Iraq's religious leaders are the one authority Iraqis trust now. You can't keep them out of whatever political system you're building, not without resorting to (thuggish) police state tactics yourself. By insisting they should at all costs not be allowed into power, you just boost a radicalising resistance.

By making clear that what you're concerned about is the rules of the game (basic human rights, half-decent democracy, no violent persecution of minorities and a reasonably free media should be feasible) - but that in terms of political points of view they choose to promote within the rules of the game, they're as free as anyone is in their own country (i.e. they dont suddenly need to become happy capitalist grateful friends of America) - you just might stand a chance of transforming those religious leaders into a stabilising factor.
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ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 02:11 pm
Quote:
What "old Iraq"? Iraq wasn't a Muslim state before the Americans invaded it - it was a secular dictatorship.


What I meant by "old" Iraq was the anti-American government. I was trying to distinguish between religious and secular.

Quote:
The definition of "thugs", as in, people we need to keep out of power by violence and occupation if need be, should be based on behaviour, not ideology.


I can agree with that. And remember, I never said we should never allow a Muslim government, but that we should make sure that that Muslim government is on good terms with us.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 03:07 pm
ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:
And remember, I never said we should never allow a Muslim government, but that we should make sure that that Muslim government is on good terms with us.


Yes, thats where I disagree. I think the US should choose: is it out there (or out anywhere) to promote democracy, as it claims to be, or is it merely out there to create "friendly states"?

I'm asking because yes, both would be nice, obviously - but as often as not, these two things are in conflict with each other. True democracy might well bring Iraq a government that is not "on good terms" with you. This is the distinction that earlier on I had the impression you were blotting, equating 'those who don't like us' with 'thugs who are against democracy'.

As past and current US foreign policy easily shows, there's enough thugs who are against democracy but who are on good terms with you, and therefore get US support. And history has also shown some unpleasant examples of democratic leaders who were ousted or (violently) sabotaged by the US because they weren't eager to be "on good terms".

The current US government has the tendency - as have had many past administrations - to blot the distinction in the very way I thought you did just now. Trying to pass off wholly egocentric moves to put friendly regimes in place as valiant crusades for democratisation, and vice versa, to limit a process of democratisation in order to guarantee a friendly regime. This record explains a lot of the distrust the US faced when it tried to "sell" its liberation of Iraq to the world community.

Now again, there will be such a choice, and I tend to see it as the defining faultline in foreign policy, one that divides both liberals and republicans. Will we sincerely start (ever more) to opt for a true democratisation strategy, assuming that in the end, a democratised world will be a safer world for all of us? Or will we keep inciting, then suppressing democracy ad hoc, depending on whether the players involved benefit our short-term strategic interests?

Call me an idealist ...
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2004 03:18 pm
Aristide?
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