Thoughts on this early 18th century painting from Dresden?

Interesting though out of my league to answer. But I'll play with considering the painters and the painting when I'm in the mood for a good puzzle, which might be tomorrow or the next day. Will be interested for curiosity when you do find the answer, through here or some other site.

Of note that I forgot to mention. A not from the 40's on one piece of paperwork from the museum, but does not appear on the other 7 lists that were made for the collection states (direct Pich translation) - Artist: "Master German Unknown".

Of the three Germans on the list, one is completely out of the question as th artist, one is doubtful and one is possible but hesitate to see probable as the artist was sent to Venice by Augustus to expand out of his landscape mastery and gain Italian influence for his portraits. I will leave it to you fine people to check out the Google image return and they should quickly become apparent without me diluting your possible input.

That said, I feel the note is correct but I do not feel it is one ofthebitalians. There is a chance of it being from two of the French. All conjecture based solely on no fine art background and going off of online image databases of the artists listed.

Of additional note is that no images exist online of any of the recovered paintings in this collection, except for one, because they have been stored out of site since WWII.

D

@Ossobuco This is the only public forum I am sharing info about the collection. Attempting to become as informed as possible about each piece to assist my friend from being taken advantage of once she decides what to do with the collection. 80 percent of the collection is "missing" but their search will not begin until the current ones are verified. This particle one we have the most background on because of the subject in the painting.

Updates will surely be posted. It drive me nuts when I see people ask for help and not fill in people as additional info comes in or a final result is reached.

D

Farmerman will probably show up when he sees this.

I'm remembering a fellow from early a2k who might be right for figuring this out, name on the tip of my tongue, starts with M, but even if I remember he only checks in very rarely here, so sending him a PM is likely to be useless.

Ah, Mistral is who I'm thinking of. I don't remember why I think he'd be smart about art research on this, it's been a long time since I read his posts, so it's just an instinct.

Walter Hinterler might very well be quite smart about this too. I'll PM him to look at this thread.

I have no idea at all - though I've been to quite few museums and most castles of the various Saxon princely and dukely lines. (It should be Prince Elector Frederick Augustus II of Saxony, who was as Augustus III King of Poland and as Augustas III) Grand Duke of Lithuania, by the way.)

If legally everything is really sound, why not ask someone from the Dresden museums?

Are you sure of that?

I'd say it's Ladislas Leszczynski. Compare your picture to the one of Wikipedia.
It's the same person.



So, if I'm not wrong, you are looking for painter in an era that it's not his.

Actually, the Germans looted Warsaw's National Museum after the siege.

This is Frederick August II of Saxony, painted by Anton Raphael Mengs (1745) as King Augustus III of Poland ( Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister, Dresden)

I suppose, an art historian and/or someone educated about the Saxon's dynasties and/or Polish history might find the answer by this detail

Knight of the Order of the Golden Fleece which Augustus III was a member - More detailed responses to come, just got into the office and catching up.

This particular paining which was in the stores of the museum and not on display like most of the collection entrusted to the museum for safe keeping as most of the family fled. It might have been deemed unfit by the Germans as it was later taken to Russia with many of the works in this collection. In 1956 this was returned to Warsaw but notes from the time list 7 others as still being in Russia (or more pointedly "ZSSR" as it is written in Polish). Part of the "missing" numbers from the collection.

remembered it later

Undeniable resemblance after looking at most of the images in a search of portraits. Both he and Augustus III were Knights of the Order of the Golden Fleece. Obviously the paperwork and historians of the period may have mistakenly attributed the painting, as happens today (Van Dyck - Chritie's - oops).

Or, and I digress by throwing a what if - seeing as Augustus II, Leszczynski and Augustus III were so embroiled in the de-throning of one another that possibly a political motivated painter altered the looks of one of them (seeing as many Augustus III portraits show a similarly robust look that closely resembles Leszczynski - or vice versa) that it's too hard to tell by images over the internet? After a week in Warsaw being thrust into this world - I've learned to expect the unexpected.

Thanks for the name drops - going to go ask them to take a peek at the post right now.

I looked up Mistral and it seems by the list of his posts in search that he was last here in 2009, but I swear I saw a post by him a few months ago.

Farmerman is around but routinely a busy guy; he'll probably show up. Walter and Timur seem quite good at this.

edit - aha, he was here in January.

http://able2know.org/topic/205484-1

You could PM him (Click on inbox, insert his user name, write message) and that'll leave a colorful hamster on the top of whatever page he looks at if he does show up here.

Cant thank the contributors to this post enough for dropping your thoughts and references to other works. Thank you all.

I spent a week in Warsaw with the heir chasing down the location of these six which were know to be in private possession. They were given back without fan fair or defense. The back story is utterly amazing how their ownership was passed on.

The letters between the ancestors and the museum, the aged legal paperwork... it's all mind blowing and new to me. What little I knew of WWII, this family's huge part the underground resistance, fall of communism - it spanned generations and is worthy of screenplays.

This is just one painting and I chose this forum to see what kind of assistance could be generated from a public forum - it's only been a day and it's opened our eyes to the possibilities. Two of the paintings are absolutely verified and the artists known. As we slowly reach out to experts we are trying hard to know as much about each work prior to contact them.

The paintings have already changed the family member's lives in so many ways but it's just a drop in the bucket compared to what is in store for them. It is a story so closely aligned to the Rosenthal's but the major difference is that this family is not wealthy - they once were, in Poland, prior to the invasion. A wealth built upon construction and heavy industry disappeared and lay in ruin... their few children that survived fled to the United States except for two teen cousins. Those boys stayed and fought in the underground resistance, spent time in a concentration camp... the story goes on like so many others of the time.

I am assisting, full time as it were, the daughter of one of those cousins. This gentleman eventually immigrated to the United States and became a scholar in the political sciences. His story, the story of the family before and during WWII, were hidden from this generation. His final months before his death he left notes to his daughter, hidden in cards and artwork she had made him when she was a child. The story unfolds and I am honored to play a small part in attempting to connect the background of these paintings with the incredible history of this family.

Thanks for the insight. Forum use is new to me and my failure to successfully attach images to a post, or within a post, are a testament to that. I noticed in my profile it shows an area for images of mine that is empty. But, I have not found where I can upload them at the same time confessing that I am juggling multiple tasks and monitors...

There's another smart guy (who I remember posting about art matters from time to time) whose username I think also starts with M, but that one is not on the tip of my tongue. A teacher in New York state, I think, if anyone else remembers.

Hmm, that reminds me of one of my last landscape clients in the Los Angeles area; unlikely to be the same family but some similarities in my memory, which is wonky now on the details but I understood them once, a bunch of years ago. I'll pm you on that.