If God ordered you to kill your child, would you do it?

No, Joe, i don't for a moment believe that morality exists other than in the minds of those so inclined to view the world. I was simply addressing what i considered a ridiculous propostion in terms favored by the posting member. In fact, i would have said that compulsion and penalty are enshrined in the social contract as a means of obtaining compliance therewith.

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That doesn't, however, quite address the question of "morality." I recognize that many of those, if not in fact most, who negotiate the practical forms of the social contract, which is to say constitutions and statute, have morality in mind. But politics is the ultimate expression of pragmatism, the "art of the possible" if you will. When Terry asks what the source of our morality is, that seems to me a non-sequitur, especially in the context of his having mentioned the woman accused of murder in Tejas who claims to have been instructed to the act by god. His question seems to imply that society is ordered by an adherence to morality. This is to my mind nonsense, in that there are just as many "moralities" as there are people giving consideration to the question. If you will, the social contract is a negotiation of moralities, and for those of us who object to the term as absolutist and disingenuous, ethics. When a society seeks to order people's activities for the better good of the whole, many or most of those involved in the negotiation may have reference to their conception of morality, and make reference to their preferred scriptural source of that morality. This is, however, not the arbitor of the final product of that negotiation--pragmatic compromise is. In the particular case of our national constitution, there was no reference to religion at all until the ratification of the first amendment. The necessity of consensus in the formation of a social contract in a pluralistic, secular state is what leads me to say that morality is a non-sequitur in a consideration of upon what that society is ordered.

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'Pro-Choice' Clergywoman Claims God Often Wills Abortion
Bill Fancher
Agape Press
Nevertheless, these members are in the Church, and they have a rationale
for their positions. One such clergy member is Dr. Roselyn
Smith-Withers, an African-American minister in the Baptist church. She
believes that abortion is a decision that can be sanctioned by God. "I
believe God speaks to women and enables them to make decisions for
themselves," she says.

The Baptist clergy member, who is a clergy counselor for the Religious
Coalition for Reproductive Choice, considers herself a "Christian
pro-choice advocate." She recently testified in a congressional
committee hearing and told members of Congress she believes God
sometimes directs women to have abortions.

"I believe that when we do not agree or understand the challenges that a
woman is facing, we can be absolutely certain that God understands,"
Smith-Withers says.

The pro-abortion-rights minister contends that her Christian faith does
not conflict with her position that women "have the moral authority to
make decisions that are healthy, helpful, good, and of God," even if one
of those decisions is to end the life of an unborn child.

Smith-Withers recently told Congress that God can enable a woman to
choose abortion as her best option, and it is part of her ministry to
alert women to this. "I believe that God has called me to a ministry
that includes compassion for all of God's children, through all phases
of their experience," she says.

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husker wrote:

'The Baptist clergy member, who is a clergy counselor for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, considers herself a "Christian pro-choice advocate." She recently testified in a congressional committee hearing and told members of Congress she believes God sometimes directs women to have abortions.

What committee hearing required testimony on this subject?

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dyslexia wrote:

Derevon wrote:
Wrong if interpreted as a historical account of an actual event. To me it is pretty obvious for example that Jonah wasn't eaten by a big fish and spent three days inside its belly. It's of course an allegory.

and we know that because---it's stupid to think otherwise? so then how do we pick and choose what is patently stupid vs what is theologically stupid? there is some very strange thinking going on with all religions (from my point of view) to pick and choose, regardless of the rationale, that which is to be taken as literal-gospel vs that which is to be taken as allegory seems more than a difficulty. Perchance the entire crucifixon is "allegorical" and that would pretty much bring down the walls of all christian thought, (I would guess) or all we all at the mercy of
Quote:
"To me it is pretty obvious?"

We all have to read it and make our own interpretations. What makes sense to one, makes no sense to another and vice versa. If we discover a concept that fits in with what we already perceive to be true, we will likely embrace it, and put the newly found "piece of the puzzle" where we think it belongs in our conception of the world and everything. If something doesn't make sense to us, we will most likely reject it. The purpose of the Bible, as I see it, is not to provide an authoritative "law", that everyone "must" follow literally, but rather to serve as a source for spiritual truth and wisdom. Hence, in my opinion, there doesn't have to be a single universal interpretation of everything in it for it to be useful and valuable.

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mesquite wrote:

husker wrote:
'The Baptist clergy member, who is a clergy counselor for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, considers herself a "Christian pro-choice advocate." She recently testified in a congressional committee hearing and told members of Congress she believes God sometimes directs women to have abortions.

What committee hearing required testimony on this subject?

dunno - you see if you can find it.

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If god ordered one killed child, and there were no fries on the side, would he send it back to be 'recycled'?

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Husker, given that native Hebrew speakers have been interpreting the Torah since they wrote it, by whose standards is their interpretation is "wrong" or "misunderstood"?

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cavfancier, for those who believe that fertilized eggs have souls, God would have to recycle hundreds of millions of them every year. Or perhaps there are billions of embryonic souls flitting around heaven like fireflies.

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Derevon, the story I had read of a man (James Bartley, a sailor on the "Star of the East") surviving being swallowed by a whale turns out to be an urban legend, but surely a God who could resurrect a dead man could keep someone alive in a whale for three days. Oh ye of little faith

Where do you suppose that we get the original notions of truth and wisdom that allow us to pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe and which to reject?

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Setanta, I am shocked that the state of Texas would put its secular laws above the Word of God!

I generally agree with you about social contracts, but I think that there should be an underlying system of ethics, if not morality, on which to base even the most pragmatic of agreements. Otherwise you get men agreeing that women may be denied rights and treated as property. (BTW, you seem to have a misapprehension about my gender. Terry is short for Theresa.)

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Husker, if we are truly given free will and God has demonstrated his lack of concern for killing babies, Smith-Withers has a good point.

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Terry wrote:

Husker, given that native Hebrew speakers have been interpreting the Torah since they wrote it, by whose standards is their interpretation is "wrong" or "misunderstood"?

It happens all the time by different groups and or demoninations - that's the point I was making just like all the versions of the bible.

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Terry wrote:

Husker, if we are truly given free will and God has demonstrated his lack of concern for killing babies, Smith-Withers has a good point.

his lack of concern would be by taking away our free will - the God or Jesus of the NT would not ask anyone to take a life.

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Terry wrote:

cavfancier, for those who believe that fertilized eggs have souls, God would have to recycle hundreds of millions of them every year. Or perhaps there are billions of embryonic souls flitting around heaven like fireflies.

Ahh...small fries supersized. I get it. :wink:

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husker wrote:

It happens all the time by different groups and or demoninations - that's the point I was making just like all the versions of the bible.

Freudian typo?

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joefromchicago wrote:

husker wrote:
It happens all the time by different groups and or demoninations - that's the point I was making just like all the versions of the bible.

Freudian typo?

LOL - pre-senior moment!

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Terry wrote:

Setanta, I am shocked that the state of Texas would put its secular laws above the Word of God!

I generally agree with you about social contracts, but I think that there should be an underlying system of ethics, if not morality, on which to base even the most pragmatic of agreements. Otherwise you get men agreeing that women may be denied rights and treated as property. (BTW, you seem to have a misapprehension about my gender. Terry is short for Theresa.)

Sorry for the gender mix up, Boss, no offense intended.

If one were to base one's morality on religious dogma, in this "christian" nation, you would have the spectre of Leviticus, with execution for adulterers, homosexuals and unruly children. The law of retribution would apply--an eye for an eye. It is under such a compulsion that you are more likely to get women and children as chattel. I would think that the best of social contracts were a negotiation of ethos, simply because of the religious hoorah, i am leary of any appeals to "morality," which seems inevitably to lead to absolutes which are not to be questioned. Perhaps i did not make it clear above, but it is a negotiation of morality or ethics which leads to the social contract--as such, we get morality by proxy, or perhaps, "filtered morality."

Tejas is not on this planet--however, they have managed the dimensional transfer so well, that you hardly notice the flicker when you drive across the border.

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husker wrote:

mesquite wrote:
husker wrote:
'The Baptist clergy member, who is a clergy counselor for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, considers herself a "Christian pro-choice advocate." She recently testified in a congressional committee hearing and told members of Congress she believes God sometimes directs women to have abortions.

What committee hearing required testimony on this subject?

dunno - you see if you can find it.

I did and your source makes no mention, which makes it suspect.

Edit: Nevermind.

Quote:

Last week, Senator Sam Brownback (R., Kan.) sponsored hearings in the Senate to review the impact of abortion on women and, ultimately, to call for greater research. Note well, this was not intended to be an abortion debate. Rather, it was meant to offer a close look at the effects, positive or negative, of abortions on the women who have them.

source

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I think I found that that beliefnet or something like that.

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If God ordered you to kill your child, would you do it?

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