I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

@Frank Apisa,

This contains my question to you which you've shied away from:

http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443312

There are no alternatives... logically... to singular, multiple both or neither, so choose one or remain illogical. Or state a reasoned argument how those four which cover all possibilities are wrong. I suspect you won't.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Let me make it even clearer Frank...something that must be a guess, cannot be knowledge. By definition - it is impossible for a guess to be knowledge (but it's not impossible for a guess to be correct, or fact).

So, every time you state they are guessing (and as many times as you said it) - you are in fact, saying they do not know.

The implication of what you are saying isn't actually debatable.

I find it amazing that you bail people up with question after question about how they know...but when someone asks you
"how do you know that what they claim to know, is unknowable?"...you avoid the question.

P.S. (this question has obvious ties to your statement that you do know know the reality of existence)

2 Replies

@igm,

igm wrote:

This contains my question to you which you've shied away from:

http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443312

There are no alternatives... logically... to singular, multiple both or neither, so choose one or remain illogical. Or state a reasoned argument how those four which cover all possibilities are wrong. I suspect you won't.

I already responded to that question...and gave an answer. You apparently do not understand the answer. If you have a problem with the answer...tell me what the problem is and I will try to explain it in simpler terms.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Let me make it even clearer Frank...something that must be a guess, cannot be knowledge. By definition - it is impossible for a guess to be knowledge (but it's not impossible for a guess to be correct, or fact).

Hooray...we are esentially in agreement here. I would have prefered other wording, but I accept this. I would have prefered mentioning that anything that is not knowledge...is essentially a guess (although guesses can be estimates, suppositions, hypotheses, etc.)

Quote:

So every time you state they are guessing (and as many times as you said it) - you are in fact, saying they do not know.

Correct...we are in agreement. IT IS NOT KNOWLEDGE. But I am not saying they do not know. I am saying that it seems to me to be a guess. There is always the possibility that there is a GOD posting here...who actually DOES KNOW WHAT THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY IS.

There also is the possibility that someone here is simply smarter than any of the other people who have worked on this problem...and has come to absolute knowledge.

Whenever I state that I think they are guessing...I am guessing that they are guessing.

Quote:

So back to the question - how do you know what they claim to know is unknowable?

I do not claim to know it is unknowable. I thought I mentioned that...several times, in fact. I thought I put it in large letters...and in red font.

Am I mistaken?

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Let me make it even clearer Frank...something that must be a guess, cannot be knowledge. By definition - it is impossible for a guess to be knowledge (but it's not impossible for a guess to be correct, or fact).

So, every time you state they are guessing (and as many times as you said it) - you are in fact, saying they do not know.

The implication of what you are saying isn't actually debatable.

I find it amazing that you bail people up with question after question about how they know...but when someone asks you
"how do you know that what they claim to know, is unknowable?"...you avoid the question.

P.S. (this question has obvious ties to your statement that you do know know the reality of existence)

I see you have added some stuff while I was responding.

How you can possibly say I have avoided the question is beyond me. I have dealt with the question every time you ask it. But you simply do not want to accept my answer.

Lemme try again:

I do not know that it is unknowable.

By now, Vikorr...you should be getting the message.

I SUSPECT THEY DO NOT KNOW.

I even ask them to explain to me how they know (if they know)...and how they know they are not deluding themselves.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Correct...we are in agreement. IT IS NOT KNOWLEDGE. But I am not saying they do not know. I am saying that it seems to me to be a guess.

Seriously Frank?

So, you realise you are in a tight situation, and you start using minimisers (ie it seems like), to make your stance seem a lot 'less' than it really is.

(99% of your posts don't sound remotely like 'it seems to me to be a guess'...I can't in fact recall one time you used that phrase (it seems like a guess) prior to now).

Quote:

Whenever I state that I think they are guessing...I am guessing that they are guessing.

Problem is you don't state 'I think you are guessing', you virtually always stated 'you are guessing / it's just a guess' etc.
(99% of your posts don't sound remotely like 'I think they are guessing'...I can't in fact recall one time you used that phrase prior to now).

Stating 'I think you are guessing' wouldn't create an issue, and I wouldn't have asked my question.... but stating 'you are guessing' is stating 'you do not know'.

So...let me agree that every time you say 'it's just a guess' you mean 'it seems to me like it is a guess'...so, passing on my original question, it now has to become :

If you only 'think' it's a guess, and if it only 'seems like it is a guess', and you don't claim to know if what they know is knowable...why are you so adamant that they admit it is a guess?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You might want to re-think your logic on this, Vikorr.

You seem to be saying that if a person says, “I suspect you do not KNOW that”…he is actually saying, “I think that is unknowable.”

If I were to say to you that I suspect you do not know how to safely disarm a nuclear weapon…I certainly would not be saying that the KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO DISARM A NUCLEAR WEAPON…is unknowable.

Right?

Truly, do you see my point?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You seem to be saying that if a person says, “I suspect you do not KNOW that”…he is actually saying, “I think that is unknowable.”

See my previous reply Frank.

0 Replies

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Correct...we are in agreement. IT IS NOT KNOWLEDGE. But I am not saying they do not know. I am saying that it seems to me to be a guess.
Seriously Frank?

So, you realise you are in a tight situation, and you start using minimisers (ie it seems like), to make your stance seem a lot 'less' than it really is.

(99% of your posts don't sound remotely like 'it seems to me to be a guess'...I can't in fact recall one time you used that phrase (it seems like a guess) prior to now).

Quote:
Whenever I state that I think they are guessing...I am guessing that they are guessing.
Problem is you don't state 'I think you are guessing', you virtually always stated 'you are guessing / it's just a guess' etc.
(99% of your posts don't sound remotely like 'I think they are guessing'...I can't in fact recall one time you used that phrase prior to now).

Stating 'I think you are guessing' wouldn't create an issue, and I wouldn't have asked my question.... but stating 'you are guessing' is stating 'you do not know'.

So...let me agree that every time you say 'it's just a guess' you mean 'it seems to me like it is a guess'...so, passing on my original question, it now has to become :

If you only 'think' it's a guess, and if it only 'seems like it is a guess', and you don't claim to know if what they know is knowable...why are you so adamant that they admit it is a guess?

Vikorr...here is a link to a comment I wrote 10 years ago. It pretty much says the same thing I am saying...although it applies to another area.

Read it over...and then come back.

I DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY.

I SUSPECT NONE OF THE PEOPLE HERE CLAIMING KNOWLEDGE OF IT...REALLY KNOWS EITHER.

I AM NOT CLAIMING IT IS UNKNOWABLE.

WHEN I SAY "I SUSPECT THEY DO NOT KNOW"....I AM GUESSING.

0 Replies

@vikorr,

Quote:

Problem is you don't state 'I think you are guessing', you virtually always stated 'you are guessing / it's just a guess' etc.

Well...since you state that I virtually always state "you are guessing" rather than qualifying it with "I suspect" or "I think" or "I guess"...

...why not furnish me with three QUOTES of me doing so without a qualifier.

If you cannot find three...I will accept two.

And if you cannot find two...I will accept one.

Furnish three quotes where I did not use a qualifier. You claim I do it virtually every time I post...and I post dozens of times a day.

Should be a snap.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Oh...here is the link I left out of the earlier post.

http://able2know.org/topic/4543-1#post-116691

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Well...since you state that I virtually always state "you are guessing" rather than qualifying it with "I suspect" or "I think" or "I guess"...

You are quite right - I made a mistake here. Going back and reading, I did see you qualify your statements several times. I should re-read where my sentiments came from before posting.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Well...since you state that I virtually always state "you are guessing" rather than qualifying it with "I suspect" or "I think" or "I guess"...
You are quite right - I made a mistake here. Going back and reading, I did see you qualify your statements several times. I should re-read where my sentiments came from before posting.

No problem, Vikorr.

I really would like to work out whatever problems we have between us. I think your comments are excellent...but there seems to be a barrier between us that I just do not understand.

I hope something can be done to patch whatever is amiss.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

OMG, get a room! Razz

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

This contains my question to you which you've shied away from:

http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443312

There are no alternatives... logically... to singular, multiple both or neither, so choose one or remain illogical. Or state a reasoned argument how those four which cover all possibilities are wrong. I suspect you won't.

I already responded to that question...and gave an answer. You apparently do not understand the answer. If you have a problem with the answer...tell me what the problem is and I will try to explain it in simpler terms.

Explain it in simpler terms... if you wouldn't mind Frank.

The original question to max which you then replied to:
http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443298

My reply to you:
http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443312

Followed by your final reply the one I want you to explain in simpler terms as it seems absurd as we 'are' human beings:
http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443370

2 Replies

@igm,

Added all the links necessary to my post above.

If you're saying what I think you're saying Frank... then you won't even listen to logic on these questions... so to talk to you in a meaningful way is pointless. How can we have a logical discussion if you will accept anything and everything as possible... I'm glad I don't have that baggage to carry around in my life... good luck with it!

http://able2know.org/topic/220485-34#post-5443370

0 Replies

How should one understand the true nature of reality and put an end to suffering?

A few quotes from the historical Buddha: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

Do not go by revelation;
Do not go by tradition;
Do not go by hearsay;
Do not go on the authority of sacred texts;
Do not go on the grounds of pure logic;
Do not go by a view that seems rational;
Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances;
Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it;
Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent;
Do not go along because "the recluse is our teacher."

2 Replies

@igm,

and...

"Rather than continuing to seek the truth, simply let go of your views."

0 Replies

@igm,

Quote:

Explain it in simpler terms... if you wouldn't mind Frank.

Okay, let me give it a try.

You were limiting "what self is" (or "what self can possibly be") to either one, or two, or three, or four. (You can look up the options yourself.)

You then asked me if I could think of any alternatives to the limits you framed.

My reply was something along the lines of:

Yes, I can. For instance...there may be alternatives of which humans (Homo Sapiens) cannot even conceive.

I cannot name them, igm, because I am a human...I am part of Homo Sapiens.

I do not think that humans are the end-all of intelligence in this universe. (We may be, but I am not willing to make that presumption.)

There may be intelligence that is to us...what we Homo Sapiens are to pre-Australopithecines.

So what I am saying is that your arbitrary framing of limits is itself limited by the amount of intelligence a human can bring to the question.

In your follow up post, you say,

Quote:

“If you're saying what I think you're saying Frank... then you won't even listen to logic on these questions... so to talk to you in a meaningful way is pointless. How can we have a logical discussion if you will accept anything and everything as possible... I'm glad I don't have that baggage to carry around in my life... good luck with it!”

Good grief, igm…how can you consider my position to antithetical to logic…and yours to be logical. I am saying I do not know the true nature of REALITY…and that it MAY BE beyond our ken at this stage of human evolution…

…and you are saying that you KNOW and understand the true nature of REALITY…

…and that there are some things that simply cannot be accepted as possible, because...well, just "because." (A completely arbitrary limit you have gratuitously established.)

So let me take that presumption of yours and ask you a question.

THE PRESUMPTION: How can we have a logical discussion if you will accept anything and everything as possible... I'm glad I don't have that baggage to carry around in my life... good luck with it!”

Aside from things that are definitionally impossible (square circles, kind of things)…why do you consider it illogical to assume anything and everything is possible until proven impossible?

AND FOR THOSE LISTENING IN ON THIS: Do you people honestly guess that igm KNOWS the true nature of REALITY…and that he is able to determine what is possible and impossible in REALITY?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not think that humans are the end-all of intelligence in this universe. (We may be, but I am not willing to make that presumption.)

There may be intelligence that is to us...what we Homo Sapiens are to pre-Australopithecines.

You say that you 'may' be deluding yourself Frank... you cannot know... I agree with you Frank... you may be deluding yourself... How can I know the true nature of reality when I've been arguing that there is no 'self' apart from the body/mind interactions that can know the true nature of reality?

Also, I asked about if there is a 'self' that humans have such as yourself Frank... what has that to do with those who are not humans? In humans the self if it exists must be either a single self existing throughout life or multiple selves... most people would say that their sense of self is that there is one self e.g. I was born, I am living now, I will die. Your absurd objection that we have some other option but we are to stupid to work it out is not logical.. something is either one thing or not one thing... except to you Frank.. there is a race of people who know better... that Frank is illogical and no way to get anywhere using logic.

1 Reply

I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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