8
   

Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

 
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 03:35 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Enlightment is (according to Buddhists) the way to end Human Suffering, yes? The end goal is to end human suffering, and the way to do this is through enlightenment?


I don't know if this will get me off the hook, you believe I'm on... but... the entire Buddhist path is how one achieves enlightenment. The result is enlightenment or put another way (as one is the definition of the other) suffering has ended. Enlightenment means suffering has ended and when suffering has ended that is enlightenment but the path is the cause of enlightenment.

vikorr wrote:

I had a curious thought - wondering if the concept of reincarnation came from those wishing to end human suffering 'brainstorming' how to address the lifelong physical human suffering many people have lived through.


Reincarnation is the belief that a truly existent soul transmigrates to another body and can be found in the Hindu teachings.

The Buddhist notion of rebirth is that reality continuously and without end produces appearances but nothing goes from one moment to the next. It seems as if there is a self and it seems as if there are objects but it is all a projection of reality which one believes in until enlightenment. Death and rebirth are just the causes and conditions that reality projects and one misunderstands them as start.. birth... duration.. life and cessation… death.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 03:37 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

igm wrote:
I believe in rebirth . . . . .
For rebirth to occur, the soul, or some other manifestation would have to survive death. A circumstance completely without supporting evidence.

But the simplest objection I have to rebirth/reincarnation is the question of why the world's human population does not remain constant.


See my reply to vikorr, in my reply to his post above this one.. hope it helps!
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 03:46 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
. life is like a dream and so is death... followed by life and so on..


How can you know for certain that your death is like a dream? Sure other life may continue to exist and new birth may come about but rebirth as in you being reincarnated? I could see someone using your genetic code to make another body like the one you have and maybe in a few thousand years they would be able to implant all of your memories into the brain of this child but would it be the old you and could something like this happen by chance or nature?


See if my reply to vikorr (two posts above this one) helps you to understand my position.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 04:53 am
@Herald,
Defective understanding to an English speaker does not mean a misunderstanding. You don't need to try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. Your knowledge of English is really poor, and you have no business dictating semantics to native speakers. I have no idea what you think ". . . they are and even how" means in English. If one thinks that something is not known, it is really unjustified to think that it exists.

This is not a "religious and atheistic" forum. This site entails discussions of just about any subject you can think of. There are probably more politica threads than there are religious threads. There is one member here who has more than 100,000 posts. They are almost exclusively in word game threads--not a single one in threads about religion. As usual, you display your ignorance.

I don't care whether or not there is a god, which what you conveniently lifted for your nonsensical exposition. I do care about the subject of religion, because people attempt to foist religion off on others constantly. A person of religious conviction may oppose abortion, for example, so i will oppose them attempting to impose that on society. A great many of my posts about religion simply ridicule the gooty notions people have about religion. Posts about atheism are often produced by jokers like you who have no idea why people who are called atheists are characterized as they are. You have used tactics which would embarrass a high school debating team. You provide your own definitions to suit your argument, and you falsely ascribe beliefs and positions to people which suit your arguments. You won't accept that you are wrong, because then your feeble and feeble-minded arguments fall apart.

You're ignorant, you would be a bully if you could, and your English sucks.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 08:06 am
@Setanta,
You have so many logical fallacies here that I don't know where to start from.
Quote:
You don't need to try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

logical fallacy 'argument from authority', 'straw man', 'red herring'
Quote:
Your knowledge of English is really poor

'ad hominem', 'red herring'
Quote:
... and you have no business dictating semantics to native speakers

'half truth', 'argument from omniscience'
Quote:
This is not a "religious and atheistic" forum.

BTW see the title of the theme.
Quote:
politica

... maybe 'political'
Quote:
As usual, you display your ignorance.

'ad hominem', 'circular reasoning', 'observational selection'
Quote:
I don't care whether or not there is a god

It is obvious, as you are not talking on the theme and deal with 'ad hominem'
Quote:
for your nonsensical exposition

'circular reasoning', 'ad hominem'
Quote:
I do care about the subject of religion

How do you both care and don't care? I told you that you are impossible to exist in the physical world as a result of serious self-contradiction, but you didn't believe me ... and you should.
Quote:
A great many of my posts about religion simply ridicule the gooty notions people have about religion.

So you think you stay above God ... and above the things, maybe.
Quote:
... why people who are called atheists are characterized as they are.

You do not have the powers ... and the mental capacity to talk on behalf of the whole mankind.
'ad hominem' 'red herring' 'straw man'
Quote:
You won't accept that you are wrong, because then your feeble and feeble-minded arguments (will?!) fall apart.

'straw man' 'omniscience' 'ad hominem' 'ad hominem' 'proving non-existence'
Quote:
You're ignorant, you would be a bully if you could, and your English sucks.

'ad hominem' 'straw man' 'ad hominem'
Quote:
Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

BTW where is your comment on the theme - everything is invectives 'ad hominem'. Aha, I forgot that you are trolling ...just to collect points.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 08:36 am
@igm,
Quote:
Reincarnation is the belief that a truly existent soul transmigrates to another body and can be found in the Hindu teachings.


OK so it is a belief.

Quote:
The Buddhist notion of rebirth is that reality continuously and without end produces appearances but nothing goes from one moment to the next.


There are many ideas about what reality is but I think that there needs to be an observer present for one to see it.

I do not understand why reincarnation is thought to be possible. I can see a recycling process.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:13 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Reincarnation is the belief that a truly existent soul transmigrates to another body and can be found in the Hindu teachings.


OK so it is a belief.

Quote:
The Buddhist notion of rebirth is that reality continuously and without end produces appearances but nothing goes from one moment to the next.


There are many ideas about what reality is but I think that there needs to be an observer present for one to see it.

I do not understand why reincarnation is thought to be possible. I can see a recycling process.


You have agreed that the Hindu reincarnation is a belief.. not the Buddhist rebirth... you do know that.. right?

There are many reasons why there cannot be an observer... impermanence means that nothing remains the same so an observer never has time to observe.

Reincarnation is not thought possible by Buddhists but is by Hindus. For Buddhists everything is just causes and conditions that are appearing without being able to remain the same or cease. Non-dua,l unelaborated, unconditioned, reality. This is not easy to understand but I've stated it anyway.

0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:15 am
@Setanta,
I see that you have made a new friend.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:29 am
@Herald,
A native speaker of a language, who is evidently literate, indulges in no fallacy to point out to someone who is not only not a native speaker but whose command of that language is evidently poor, that it is poor. It is no straw man to point out that you claimed that you can command the English language just by having a dictionary, and that it's simply not true. No native speaker of English will consider misunderstanding to be cognate with defective understanding. Get out your precious dictionary and look up the word defect. It was no red herring, either, because it is important to point out when you are wrong because of your lack of a command of English.

It is not argumentum ad hominem to point out that your English is poor. Once again, it is no red herring to point that out, especially as it leads you to make incomprehensible remarks, or remarks which do not say in English what you apparently thought they meant--such as that misunderstanding and defective understanding are cognate, which they are not.

An argument from omniscience involves a claim that "everyone knows this." I used no such argument. It is neither a half truth nor an argument from omniscience to point out that your English is so poor that you have no business attempting to argue semantics with a literate native speaker. (You do know what literate means? You do know that reading my posts is evidence that i am literate?)

This site has many, many subjects under discussion. You made a snide remark about me having more than 10,000 posts. Not all of my posts, nor even a significant fraction of them have been made under the rubric of religion. There's a hell of a lot more going on at this site than talking to arrogant and ignorant strangers who think they can speak my native language better than i can, and that they are entitled to dictate definitions to me, and to tell me what i believe when they know nothing about me.

There is no "circular reasoning" involved in pointing out that you are ignorant. Nor is it an argumentum ad hominem when it is self-evidently true. Apparently, you don't understand what an observational fallacy is. That fallacy does not apply to pointing out the evidence of your ignorance.

Your remark about my having repeated that i don't care whether or not there is a god is certainly well within the subject of this thread, as i am challenging the bullshit you've been peddling about atheists. It is not by the wildest stretch of the imagination an argumentum ad hominem to say that i don't care if a there is or is not a god. You're going off the deep end attempting to display all the logical fallacies you've heard of.

Religion and god are not the same thing, although you may think so in your narrow little world. It apparently doesn't occur to you that someone who does not believe there is a god but who can see the evidence of religion all around is going to be able to distinguish them. I don't care whether or not there is a god. I do care if religious fanatics and bullies (which is what you have attempted to be here by dictating terms) are trying to force their beliefs on me, or on anyone else.

Once again, you apparently don't understand that someone who doesn't believe that there is a god is not going to be trying to "stay above god," as there is nothing to stay above. (Another sterling example of your poor English, too, by the way.)

It's rather hilarious and pathetic to see you whine about "ad hominem," not just because pointing out your poor English and your ignorance is not an argument ad hominem, but simply accurate observations, but also because you then accuse me of trolling (and i suspect you don't really know what that means, either) and doing so to collect points--which by your feeble standards would be "ad hominem." Who awards the points? What does one get for those points?

You're getting nastier and more childish as this progresses. Once again, that's not an argument, it's just an accurate observation.

Tell us some more about your anthropomorphized "big bang," that's about the funniest **** you've posted here.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:31 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
. . . .Tell us some more about your anthropomorphized "big bang," that's about the funniest **** you've posted here.
Thanks for asking about that, Set. I, too, would like to read his exposition.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 11:54 am
@neologist,
- How did the Big Bang ignite the stellar evolution from 0-D space (and without energy)?
- If the chemical elements can evolve from one another - where is the code for this?
- What are the causes of the stellar evolution and how & where is the information encoded?
- How and when has the Big Bang switched-over from stellar evolution to evolution of the species (... on our planet for example)?
- Why doesn't the Big Bang execute evolutionary operations at present?
- If we have evolved in the distant past from the earthworms, why are there still erthworms that do not have the slightest intention to evolve?
- If our DNA is much closer to that of the rats, why does the evolution claim that we have evolved from monkeys?
- Is information lost in the universe (in the black holes for example)? If there is lost information, what are we observing through the telescope?
The natural development of a planet is to slide down the rollba of the CO2 (minimising the energy) & it happens everywhere in the SS, for example, but x100 mys ago the Earth had 4500 ppm of CO2, which has been reduced to 150 ppm x1000 years ago. This is in contradiction with everything that Big Bang is capable of - how does that happen?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 12:08 pm
@Herald,
Just to hit on one of your idiotic high points, evolutionary biology does not allege that humans evolved from monkeys. Additionally, evolution is not an intentional act, it is a process driven by natural selection. You really are a religious bigot, aren't you? (By the way, one would not say "the evolution claim," as always, your English sucks.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 12:21 pm
@Herald,
Here ya go, Neo . . . this is what i was referring to:

Herald wrote:
My hobby in the recent years was to verify & validate the theory of the Atheists about the creation & evolution of the Universe.
Yes, exactly creation & evolution: at first Big Bang created the space out of nothing and without any access to any energy source, then tired of His well done job left the things in the lurch ... to evolve as they find appropriate.


Apparently, what we have always known as the big bang, is actually a sentient entity whose name is Big Bang, and to whom one refers as he (? . . . did someone sneak a peek in the locker room when he didn't have his pants on?), but with the capital "h"--He. Big Bang must be a god.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 02:10 pm
@Setanta,
Sound like ' bang who causes to become'

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 02:10 pm
@Setanta,
Sound like ' bang who causes to become'

0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 03:00 pm
@igm,
Quote:
I don't know if this will get me off the hook, you believe I'm on... but... the entire Buddhist path is how one achieves enlightenment. The result is enlightenment or put another way (as one is the definition of the other) suffering has ended. Enlightenment means suffering has ended and when suffering has ended that is enlightenment but the path is the cause of enlightenment.

I didn't know that asking questions put anyone on a hook. You did see the question mark after each question, right?

And if I understand what you are saying afterwards regarding 'the path' (I am making a presumption here that this means 'the Buddha's path'), respectfully, I disagree...for very much the same reason I disagree with many christians view of 'we were all born sinful' or 'every good thing comes from God'.

igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 03:24 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

I didn't know that asking questions put anyone on a hook. You did see the question mark after each question, right?



No, for some reason I didn't... my mistake.


vikorr wrote:

And if I understand what you are saying afterwards regarding 'the path' (I am making a presumption here that this means 'the Buddha's path'), respectfully, I disagree...for very much the same reason I disagree with many christians view of 'we were all born sinful' or 'every good thing comes from God'.



I'm not sure I understand you; you'll need to explain what made you assume that my post explained any of the reasoning that enabled me to come to those conclusions.. it certainly isn't blind faith. Explain if you'd like... if not... c'est la vie!

vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 01:43 am
@igm,
igm wrote:
the entire Buddhist path is how one achieves enlightenment. The result is enlightenment or put another way (as one is the definition of the other) suffering has ended. Enlightenment means suffering has ended and when suffering has ended that is enlightenment but the path is the cause of enlightenment.
The path in the context of this conversation appears to be 'the Buddha's path' - is that correct?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:51 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

The path in the context of this conversation appears to be 'the Buddha's path' - is that correct?


Yes, the path as explained by the Buddha.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:31 am
@igm,
That's what I thought. So to explain my post that you asked about :

I found that religion (well, christianity anyway) offered 'the path as explained by the religion', while I found that examples from life itself offered a much clearer, and much more solid path.

Christianity said that we were born sinful (and therefore imperfect)...while I found that we are born pure, and perfect - and learn to be less. Christianity also suggests that all good comes from God, while I think all good comes from our nature and our conscience.

That is to say...I believe that even the path to enlightenment will be a personal path, rather than 'the path of Buddha' or 'the path of Christianity' etc....which is not to say that a path already trodden by someone else does not offer lessons (it may well offer many), or even a structured way to begin.

In the end, I have the suspicion that Buddha couldn't actually articulate how to find enlightenment, but rather, that he hoped that people would realise they would have to eventually tread the path to it of themselves.
 

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