Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

@rosborne979,

Quote:

There is. It's called the scientific methodology.

I think that neo and others know how to apply it but refuse to apply to their own religion. I wonder if they are willing to apply it to other religions and explain why the method is true in the case of the other beliefs or religions.

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@igm,

One accepting a blood transfusion would not be subject to disfellowshipping.
There is a fine discussion of this topic started by our good friend Doktor S. You can find it here: http://able2know.org/topic/81075-1

It is the practice of sin which eventually would result in a person being excluded from the congregation. It makes a lot of sense, actually. If we preach against stealing, how could we tolerate one who preaches, yet steals?

So, yes. If you continue to practice those things you mentioned, you would no longer be considered one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not 100% sure what you mean about 'brazen' or 'loose' conduct, though.

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@neologist,

Quote:

So, yes. If you continue to practice those things you mentioned, you would no longer be considered one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

How can you be 100% sure that you are a witness of Jehovah. Do you think that Jehovah loves you more than a follower of Joseph Smith?

You are so certain just as a follower of Joseph Smith is but if either of you could see that a God does not have more love for one than the other "you both would not be saying to yourselves that I am worshiping god the correct way with the correct book and the other is not?

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

. . . How can you be 100% sure that you are a witness of Jehovah. Do you think that Jehovah loves you more than a follower of Joseph Smith? . . . .

It is my opinion that Jehovah loves all people equally. He continued to show kindness to Adam and Eve after they sinned. More later. I smell food .. . ..

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

First test:
(John 13:35) . . . By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.. . .

I know of no other group where members apply that sentence as well as Jehovah's Witnesses, though I am open to the idea there may be others. Also, I am quite aware that people in general are possessed of the good qualities I find among my associates. But no group I know of can make that claim.

neologist wrote:

One accepting a blood transfusion would not be subject to disfellowshipping.

I believe it is, having researched the subject and that people are willing to allow the risk of death of both themselves or their young children in order not to commit this perceived sin. I am aware of all the steps taken by the organization to avoid whole blood products e.g. anything other than whole blood products. I am willing to accept a link to a statement by the organization that disfellowship (excommunication) for this perceived sin is not the case at this present time. If not I will have to doubt you on this.

My point is, that having looked at this religion I see no reason to believe that those in charge (historically all male) are more loving towards their congregation than other religions. It seems to me that people could fear even questioning the JW Bible or Watchtower...plus a long list of perceived sins and this could mean that people's behaviour is controlled by fear of being 'shunned' or expelled for doing so.

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@igm,

Slight amendment to above post.

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@igm,

I've ben a Witness for over 40 years. I know what I've seen. There are billions of good people in the world. Some not so good. Wherever I may travel, if I check in at a JW meeting, I can be certain not to be exposed to any of the latter.
That is all I meant by the touchstone I related in my earlier post.

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@neologist,

Quote:

I've ben a Witness for over 40 years.

I do have to admit that I was raised as a witness and it sucked as a child no Christmases and so forth but I will say that as I grew older in my twenties and after far leaving the faith "not that I ever claimed to be of that faith" the only group of people who tried to share their God with me were witnesses " no others before that point in my life and I grew up as a neighbor of a church but they did not seem to have an interest in me"

I remember them as a husband and wife who came to my home when I was very poor and treated me as if I was one of their own kids. I do not remember their names and I will blame it on my memory but they were truly nice people.
I can remember that the gentleman was "or at least claimed" to have been a nuclear physicists. He was a very nice and smart man.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I've ben a Witness for over 40 years. I know what I've seen. There are billions of good people in the world. Some not so good. Wherever I may travel, if I check in at a JW meeting, I can be certain not to be exposed to any of the latter.
That is all I meant by the touchstone I related in my earlier post.

So neo, you know that JW's are good because you are certain that the one's you have met over four decades are good. That is hearsay. I'm more interested in what is preached and why.

This is not hearsay but an example of the problem with one of the JW's teachings:

Jehovah's Witness mother dies after refusing blood transfusion after giving birth to twins
By LIZ HULL, ANDY DOLAN and DAN NEWLING
Last updated at 22:26 05 November 2007

A young mother died hours after giving birth to twins because her faith prohibited a life-saving blood transfusion.
Emma Gough, 22, was able to hold her son and daughter after the natural delivery, but suffered a sudden haemorrhage and lost a great deal of blood.
As a Jehovah's Witness, Mrs Gough had signed a form before the birth insisting that she should not be given blood.
Staff at the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital begged her husband Anthony, 24, who is also a Jehovah's Witness, and other relatives to allow the transfusion. But followers believe that blood transfusions are prohibited by the Bible and the family would not sanction the treatment.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491791/Jehovahs-Witness-mother-dies-refusing-blood-transfusion-giving-birth-twins.html#ixzz2bUvXTPts
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I find teachings that lead to outcomes like this dangerous and not at all loving. I'm sure some of what JW's do is fine... but not this.

Unless you can prove that this practice has stopped I believe the JW religion is faulty and dangerous. I'd be interested to know how the JW's defend this practice. It must be in the JW Bible and/or in Watchtower. Perhaps you could help me to understand?

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@igm,

I invite you to Google 'bloodless surgery' to check my assertion that a growing number of medical practitioners would disagree that transfusion was a necessity in the case you cite.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I invite you to Google 'bloodless surgery' to check my assertion that a growing number of medical practitioners would disagree that transfusion was a necessity in the case you cite.

That's not my point neo. Why are the JW elders asking their congregations to put their lives and the dependents lives at risk in this way? Please try to answer my previous post. If you can I'll have a better opinion of the JW religion. If you can't although your religion is very wealthy it is this type of issue that could see it all drain away.

"Funding
Funding for all activities of the organization is provided by donations, primarily from members. There is no tithing or collection.[94][123] In 2001 Newsday listed the Watch Tower Society as one of New York's forty richest corporations, with revenues exceeding $950 million.[124] The organization reported for the same year that it "spent over 70.9 millions dollars in caring for special pioneers, missionaries, and traveling overseers in their field service assignments."

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

neologist wrote:
I invite you to Google 'bloodless surgery' to check my assertion that a growing number of medical practitioners would disagree that transfusion was a necessity in the case you cite.
That's not my point neo. Why are the JW elders asking their congregations to put their lives and the dependents lives at risk in this way? Please try to answer my previous post. If you can I'll have a better opinion of the JW religion. If you can't although your religion is very wealthy it is this type of issue that could see it all drain away. . .

Do you surmise JW elders enter hospitals to yank transfusion needles from the arms of dying Witness patients? Get a grip! We have free will.

It is only your opinion that our lives are at risk. I contend recent medical evidence proves the contrary.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Do you surmise JW elders enter hospitals to yank transfusion needles from the arms of dying Witness patients? Get a grip! We have free will.

It is only your opinion that our lives are at risk. I contend recent medical evidence proves the contrary.

But if you use that free will are you going against the teachings of the JW religion and if so why?

Are you saying that there is never a time when a whole blood transfusion is necessary if so I'll need to see a medical paper saying this is now the case the JW's would be the first to publish it so a link to it would suffice. I at the moment don't believe it.

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@igm,

We will both stumble over the definition of 'necessary', and who decides .

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@neologist,

So, I''ve now questioned your belief and I'm not impressed. It seems to me you are hiding the JW teachings on whole blood transfusions. Care to prove me wrong?

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@igm,

http://www.cftf.com/comments/kidsdied.html

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

http://www.cftf.com/comments/kidsdied.html

A religion is only as good as it's most extreme practices... thanks for the link. I hope neo attempts to defend the practice... but I can't see how that will be possible.

It reminds me of another example of extreme religious practice: Mormons who say that the reason black people are black is because they were cursed by god.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_Mormon_doctrine

So when JW's and Mormons come-a-knocking these are the questions I ask them to answer... if I open the door.

I am immediately labelled as one of satan's minions!

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@igm,

As usual... amended my post above.

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@igm,

Quote:

A religion is only as good as it's most extreme practices... thanks for the link. I hope neo attempts to defend the practice... but I can't see how that will be possible.

I don't think it's just religious people who can have extreme practices or beliefs because I think that non religious people can believe in some crazy things too.

Quote:

It reminds me of another example of extreme religious practice: Mormons who say that the reason black people are black is because they were cursed by god.

Religious and non religious ideas evolve over time when we are able to see how ridiculous our ideas can be at times. Then there are times when ideas evolve into more ridiculous extremes as well.

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@igm,

If you need more than this, I can provide it.
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

2 Replies

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