Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

@igm,

You really don't understand the human condition, do you? There are people whose physical suffering is permanent, due to disabling injury or a disabling morbid condition. There are people who suffer chronically because they can never get enough to eat, or a nutritious diet. Do you allege that enlightenment (which you still have not defined) will end their suffering?

Equally, there are people who suffer mental anguish, and it is naïve to suggest that your preferred religious superstition will help them. There are those who have a morbind psychological condition who constantly suffer anguish. Additionally, the friends and family members of such people (as well as of people who suffer chronic physical suffering) will themselves suffer mental anguish. I don't believe i've ever met anyone online who does not appear to be mentally deficient who is so out of touch with the reality of the human condition.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Quote:

I don't know if there is a god, i don't believe there is a god, and i don't care.

If someone doesn't know and thinks that the issue of God is unknown and unknowable - this is agnostic.
I someone doesn' believe in God, and believes there are no deities - this is typical atheist.
If someone doesn't care - he is negligence.
If someone is both agnostic and atheist for example, he has a self-contradiction ... and hence cannot exist in the physical world ... except for the case when he does not know the interpretation of the words he is using.

Quote:

you've got a gall to tell people what words mean in English

In a discussion usually, but not always, special definitions of the terms are accepted ... and used.
The terms may have a lot of different interpretations (besides the definition in the dictionary) and in case of a risk of ambiguity the definition or the interpretation has to be stated explicitely.
But this does not concern you, for you will never acquire such culture of communication.

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@Herald,

The usually accepted meaning of words are not your cup of tea.

Your notions seem to be a mess either:

- Asserting that an atheist is a fanatic believer in the big-bang theory is really over the top.

- Asserting that a person that doesn't care about gods is negligent is just plain dumb.

Any others of that caliber?

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@timur,

Quote:

Asserting that an atheist is a fanatic believer in the big-bang theory

Most of them actually are, but I might somewhat overdone it.

Quote:

Asserting that a person that doesn't care about gods is negligent

Not only about God - doesn't care about most of the problems. How is this called ... in your understanding of the world?

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Herald wrote:

Most of them actually are

Any data to back your new assertion?

Herald wrote:

Not only about God - doesn't care about most of the problems.

How do you know that?

I, for one, do care about world and people problems but I couldn't care less about gods.

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@Setanta,

I agree that you have described suffering, both physical and mental suffering. You need to be a doctor to remove some types of temporary suffering. Permanent suffering of the type you describe is unlikely to be removed in one short lifetime but inner happiness and some peace of mind is possible... in one short lifetime.

Suffering has a single root cause if that is removed then all suffering ends. Not everyone is in a position now to remove the root cause and not everyone wants to. Many humans believe that at death we simply cease to exist but Buddhist believe that there is no evidence for that. So, we believe there is plenty of time for everyone to remove the root cause of suffering when the causes and conditions of our life are more favourable.

The Buddha was an ordinary human being, he reports that he managed to remove the root cause of suffering and explained how all others when they are ready can do the same.

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@igm,

" . . . one short lifetime . . ." ? So we can put back a belief in reincarnation into your portfolio of superstitions? Subsequent remarks of yours confirm that.

Your response doesn't convince me that anything sinks in with youYou are a religious fanatic to a tee, with all the delusional baggage. Upon what basis, upon what evidence can you assert that there is more than one life for a person? All you offer is an argument from ignorance (i.e., we don't know there isn't, so maybe there is).

Once again, i see no evidence that you are familiar with the human condition. I consider Buddhism to be one of the more bare-faced and successful cons in the the religious playbook.

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@Herald,

As usual, you're wrong, either from defective understanding or mere ignorance. Being agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive positions. The "typical atheist" is a weak, or implicit atheist. What you described originally is the minority type, the strong or explicit atheist.

As has been pointed out to you, you are profoundly ignorant of the meanings of words, at least in English. You have no business telling native speakers of English that they don't know the "interpretation" of words when your own command of English is so obviously poor.

But i'll give you credit for unintentional comedy with that remark about the "culture of communication." You're a pistol, Bubba.

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@igm,

Quote:

Buddhist enlightenment as I understand it, is defined as the cessation of suffering, especially mental suffering

I find this to be reasonable and I do not see it as circular, if it were circular wouldn't the enlightenment cause the same suffering?

I think it is because of tribulations or the problems that we encounter' that able us to receive knowledge about the suffering and with knowledge comes answers to problems.
Sure there is suffering that we do not yet have enough knowledge to make us enlightened about the subject but when we become more enlightened to what the reality is then we will be able to use our enlightenment to stop the suffering.

I am as shocked as this audience is that sentanta is unable to see the value that you have shared. Shocked

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@Setanta,

I believe in rebirth its not the same thing and very difficult to explain. It is similar to the 'Many Worlds Interpretation' in quantum physics which says that it is impossible not to be conscious of reality... ever.

Buddhism works to some degree in the short term for many people i.e. just one life. They can feel less suffering with more happiness and a greater peace of mind. This is available to all those who want to try and then make an effort to gain some beneficial experience.

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@igm,

You don't need to waste your time any longer. I am convinced that you are as hag-ridden by superstition as is any other religious fanatic.

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@igm,

Quote:

I believe in rebirth

OK so you believe in rebirth but do you understand how it works well enough to explain it to us or is it just a belief?

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
I believe in rebirth

OK so you believe in rebirth but do you understand how it works well enough to explain it to us or is it just a belief?

It isn't easy I will just say that.. I'll give you a hint... because reality is impermanent then there is no duration and if there is no duration then how can reality start but nevertheless it appears... we experience it... so if it appears but it doesn't start or remain how can it cease? It can't, therefore cessation of experience isn't possible and reality appears due to causes and conditions and is unstoppable... life is like a dream and so is death... followed by life and so on... but there is nothing other than reality.. no self... no object.

How can I explain it...? I can only hint that it is true and that we can reason our way to an understanding if after doing each contemplation we also meditate... but it isn't easy. There are benefits along the way though and rebirth is something to put on the back burner until later... although I understand that many will not even attempt enlightenment because of their skepticism about rebirth.

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@Frank Apisa,

Hi Frank,

Regarding your last post to me.

Every person should take responsibility for their own decisions...this I learnt from life...this reflects back onto my view of the Adam and Eve story.

I also learnt from life that every decision has consequences. This reflects back onto my view of Adam and Eve.

This is why I call your view a cynically humorous view of the story

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@igm,

Quote:

. life is like a dream and so is death... followed by life and so on..

How can you know for certain that your death is like a dream? Sure other life may continue to exist and new birth may come about but rebirth as in you being reincarnated? I could see someone using your genetic code to make another body like the one you have and maybe in a few thousand years they would be able to implant all of your memories into the brain of this child but would it be the old you and could something like this happen by chance or nature?

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@igm,

I think igm, that Setanta does have a point regarding circularity.

Enlightment is (according to Buddhists) the way to end Human Suffering, yes? The end goal is to end human suffering, and the way to do this is through enlightenment?

Therefore saying enlightenment is the end to human suffering is synonymously true, because it can be drawn on a diagram as a circle with arrows pointing to each other. But to say that it is the definition would be...circular.

I don't think it's necessary to define mental suffering (it seems blatantly obvious) and enlightenment may help alleviate the mental side of physical suffering...though my view is very simplified - make the best of your lot in life.

I had a curious thought - wondering if the concept of reincarnation came from those wishing to end human suffering 'brainstorming' how to address the life long physical human suffering many people have lived through.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

I believe in rebirth . . . . .

For rebirth to occur, the soul, or some other manifestation would have to survive death. A circumstance completely without supporting evidence.

But the simplest objection I have to rebirth/reincarnation is the question of why the world's human population does not remain constant.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

You don't need to waste your time any longer. I am convinced that you are as hag-ridden by superstition as is any other religious fanatic.

That's not fair. I believe igm beats me by a mile.

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I had a curious thought - wondering if the concept of reincarnation came from those wishing to end human suffering 'brainstorming' how to address the life long physical human suffering many people have lived through.

Not at all implausible.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

defective understanding

If one is such a great native English speaker he/she should have known that 'defective understanding' is called misunderstanding ... in most of the dictionaries, for when he uses such fabulous term the other side is never sure whether deffective means gaps in knowledge or cross-cultural misunderstanding of the self and of the world.

Quote:

Being agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive positions.

... they are and even how. When one thinks that something or some being is not knowable, the most natural next thing to think and to believe is maybe that this thing or being or whatever does exist in space and time ... and metaspace.

Quote:

I don't care (about the existence of God-previous post).

... and I don't believe you ... at all. If somebody has over 10 000 posts on religious and atheistic forums there is not way for this guy to be called non-caring about the topic.
Actually in the Scandinavian folklore there is a special naming for this case scenario.

1 Reply

Have you ever questioned other peoples beliefs?

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